More Discussions for this daf
1. Dibur is not a Ma'aseh 2. Pshat in Rashi 3. Which Mesichta comes before Makos?
4. Keitzad Ein HaEdim Neasim Zomemim 5. Edut Sh'eino Yachol L'haziman 6. Question on the second Kal Vachomer.
7. Rebbi Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer 8. Eidim Zomemim 9. Rebbi Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer
10. Does the Gerushah become a Chalalah? 11. Damages 12. Iy Atah Yachol Lehazimah, and Kim Lei...
13. 40 lashes 14. Minah Hani Mili 15. Edus she'I Efshar l'Hazimah
16. Malkus for Edim Zomemim in a case of Ben Gerushah, Tosfos 17. Question on Suggestion of First Tosfos 18. First Tosfos on Daf 2a
19. Mitzri Sheni 20. Lo Sa'aneh Without an Action 21. Mitzri Sheni
22. Ben Gerushah And Ben Chalutzah 23. Chalutzah 24. Galus
25. Chalalah 26. R Yochanons Kal v'Chomer- Insights 27. Killing b'Shogeg or b'Meizid
28. Ma'aseh or not? 29. v'Lo Ka'asher Asah 30. Tosfos on "Mah ha'Sokel"
31. Tosfos and Maharsha 2b 32. R. Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer 33. Question on the Ritva from Shifchah Charufah (in Insights)
34. מכות בגימטריא הרהורים 35. מכות בגימטריא הרהורים 36. תוספות ד"ה מעידין
37. אין עושין בהן דין הזמה כל עיקר 38. והצדיקו את הצדיק 39. בגניבתו ולא בזממו
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MAKOS 2

Abraham Yohros asked:

in the first line of the first gemara the gaemara starts with a question why dosent it say keitzad ein ha edim neasim zomemim and i cant understand the question because the first tosfot says on the yesh lomar that it is not an edut you cant lehazimam because the hazama is malkut (even though they did not intended malkut for him ela make him ben gerusha or ben halutza)so when the gemara asks why didnt you start with a case that is actually of edim zomemim i could only say that wait THAT IS A CASE . i was thinking maybe the answer is that the question is why dosent the mishna start with a super good case of hazama and not a mediocre case like it did (i also dont like the word mediocre but because of language problems i cant find another word)

Abraham Yohros, panama city, panama

The Kollel replies:

Your answer is the best answer I can think of, with the only drawback being that it does not fit to well in the language of the Gemara (not the end of the world).

I'd like to suggest a similar answer, which is also possibly your intention. "k'Asher Zamam" can be interpreted in a specific way and a general way. The specific way is like you are translating it, meaning that he should have done to him the exact punishment that he planned to do to his friend.

However, it can also be interpreted as meaning that the witnesses should be punished just as they planned to punish their friend, with the emphasis on punishment, not the exact punishment. Chazal determined that this means that the witnesses should be given the exact punishment they planned, unless the Torah says otherwise (as in our cases), in which case the Zomimim get a different punishment.

Accordingly, both the Gemara and Tosfos are correct. The witnesses are still considered to get punished "k'Asher Zamam," as they are being punished like they planned to punish their friend. However, the Gemara is also correct when it says that they are not made into Zomimim, as this case is not a case where the normal intent of the Torah as deteremined by Chazal is fulfilled, since the exact punishment is not given. This is why the Gemara says that the Mishna should say how are they not made Zomimim.

All the best,

Yaakov Montrose