More Discussions for this daf
1. Ribis When Buying A Plane Ticket 2. Rebbi Yehudah Bereirah
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA METZIA 63

Moshe Katz asks:

Al pi the gemara in Baba Metzia Daf 63b:

Amar Rav Nachman Klala d'Rebisa Kol Agar Natar Leih Asur

Is there an issue to buy a plane ticket from an airline like El Al where if you pay in advanced they give you a cheaper price?

The Kollel replies:

Dear Moshe,

The first source that comes to mind that seems to relate to our question, is a statement in the Gemara (Bava Metzia, 63b) that says that if one sells an object that will be collected by the buyer at a later date and gives the buyer a discount for paying up front, then it is only permitted if the seller has the object or an identical object already in his possession, otherwise it is forbidden. This Din is brought in Shulchan Aruch (YD 173:7) with many qualifications. We won't go into these qualifications now because I think there is a more relevant source; more relevant because a plane ticket is not an object, it is an obligation to provide a service.

The more relevant source is a Braysa found in Bava Basra (86b), according to which it would be forbidden to buy the plane ticket at the cheaper price. The Braysa says that one is not allowed to hire a worker in the winter to do work in the summer and pay him now in the winter at the winter labor rate which is lower than the summer rate (see Shulchan Aruch, YD 176:8). Like hiring the worker, buying a plane ticket is essentially hiring someone to do a service for you at a later date, and advancing them the money at the lower rate has an appearance of Ribis.

Kol Tuv,

Yonasan Sigler

This is not a Psak Halachah

Martin Schejtman asks:

Lichvod haRav Sigler,

I don't understand your evidence. Before the recent advent of fixed working shifts (e.g. 8-hour work days since 1937 in the United States), summer work generally meant longer hours than winter work, because the day is longer during the summer, hence the higher daily wages. So there we're comparing 2 different services, and the employers would be paying for the less intense winter day as if it were a more intense summer day. While here in the the case of the airline it's the exact same service, just on a different date.

Martin Schejtman

Buenos Aires

The Kollel replies:

Dear Martin,

It's hard for me to know what you didn't understand. But in further consideration, I will cite another source, which I think is the most similar to our case, and which, I hope, will be more understandable. The Mishnah (65a) says "Marbin Al haSechar". What this means is that one can charge more rent for a property if the renter pays by the month instead of paying up front (Shulchan Aruch 176:6). The reason for this is that rent money is really due at the end of each month, so what he is charging him if he pays by the month is the real price, and if he gets a discount for paying up front, the landlord is willingly forgoing his due, which is not Ribis (Sha"ch, #7).

Tosafos, however, qualifies this and says that this is only true if the renter has the right to move in now when he pays up front, but if not, then it is Agar Natar. The Rashba argues and says that in any case it is permitted because the renter has made a Kinyan on the property that the landlord cannot back out of (see Ta"z, #7, that brings both opinions but doesn't decide between them). The Poskim seem to agree with the Rashb"a (see Nekudos haKesef there).

The Shulchan Aruch (ibid) says that the above Din also applies to hiring a person to do work (and we would have the same Machlokes between Tosafos and the Rashb"a). This, however, would seem to contradict the second source we brought in our first answer (Shulchan Aruch 176:8), which says that it is Asur unless the worker starts working now. The answer is that that Din is speaking about a Po'el and our present Din is speaking about a Kablan. What's the difference? A Po'el can back out of an agreement at any time; a Kablan cannot. He has made a Kinyan with the Socher.

An airline would seem to be a Kablan and an airline ticket a written contract - a form of Kinyan - with the airline. Therefore, according to the Rashb"a and other Poskim it would be permitted to buy a ticket at a discount.

Kol Tuv,

Yonasan Sigler

This is not a Psak Halachah

Yaakov Tavin asks:

Will this mean that there is a preference to using non Jewish carriers when purchasing tickets prior to the day of the flight?

The Kollel replies:

Dear Yaakov,

I think that we can forgoe all the discussion mentioned above and say that there is no preference to using a non Jewish carrier (I certainly don't want to take business away from a Jewish carrier). I fly fairly frequently, and I have never come across a situation where the airline announces to you that you are getting a discount for buying the ticket ahead of time, which was the scenario of the question asked. It happens to be that usually the price of the ticket goes up the closer you are to the day you want to travel, but it could possibly go down. The airline's formula for determing ticket price is complicated and unknown to the consumer. They are certainly entitled to change the price of the ticket from day to day without running into problems of Ribis.

Kol Tuv,

Yonasan Sigler

This is not a Psak Halachah