More Discussions for this daf
1. Mechalya Karna 2. Pi Parah 3. Muad
4. Pi Parah 5. נחש
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA KAMA 23

Eliav asks:

Dear Rabbi Kornfeld,

When a MUAD stops being MUAD - according to the Mishna on 23B - does he become a TAM with a clean slate, i.e. as if no testimony was ever given against him? Or does he become a TAM who has been testified against once less: If he was a MUAD with three terstimonies against him he becomes a TAM with two, and if he is testified against once more he again become MUAD?

Is Rabbi Yehuda's method of becoming TAM one by whch the bull has now a clean slate, but Rabbi Meir's method is of the second nature: each time the Bull can be expected to attack and does not - one count againt him drops?

Second question: If a Bull has two testimonies against him and the the children play with him - does the number reduce by one for each opportunity that the bull does not attack?

Third: Why should the bull become MUAD only if he succeeds ingoring his opponent? If he attacks and is preventd from actually goring - why should it not become MUAD after three such ocurrences?

Fourth: If the bull attacks other bulls owned by the same person, and there is no claim for damages - there is no case to come before the courts - so how will the bull become MUAD? Or won't he?

Fifth: The Beraita on 24A says that the witnesses must come before the court - but the Mechilta says "VeHuad - telling us that he[?] is not liable until "hitru bo" - which is what witnesses do ON THE SCENE and NOT in Beit Din!

Couldn't we interpret the beraita as saying that the witnesses in the issue of MUAD are like other witnesses who did the Hatraa in ordinary cases and testify that they did the Hatraa in the past - so here: they come to court when a claim of damages comes to court and testify then that in the past they did the Hatraah?

Yeshayahu HaKohen Hollander

The Kollel replies:

I will try to answer all your questions at once.

To become a Mu'ad a Shor must gore three times in a row, or in a pattern, so that if he does not gore on one occasion he goes down to "zero." There is no such thing in actuality as a one-timer or a two-timer, a Shor is either a Tam or a Mu'ad. If he is established to be a Mu'ad then he is a Mu'ad until it is proven that he has returned to be a Tam, at which time he must go through the process again.

Although the idea behind Mu'ad is Chazakah, as we see in many places in Shas, there is still a Gezeiras ha'Kasuv about how the process is done. So therefore it is often possible that a Shor is actually a Nagchan and can be expected to gore (see the end of 40a), and yet still he is a Tam. This can happen when he gores without Edim, or the case of the Shor of a Nochri, or a Tereifah, or when it gores ones own Shor, etc.

The Hasra'ah is not the Hasra'ah of the Edim that is necessary to establish that someone is a Mezid. That type of Hasra'ah obviously does not apply here where the Shor is doing the Hezek. Here the Hasra'ah is merely Beis Din warning him to watch his Shor.

D. Zupnik