More Discussions for this daf
1. The best of doctors 2. Rebbi Yehudah 3. Woe to the father of daughters
4. Parnasah 5. Rambam 6. Teaching a child Umnus
7. Animals at Work? 8. Rashi's Approval? 9. Prohibitions
10. נקייה וקלה 11. נקייה וקלה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - KIDUSHIN 82

Boruch Yuabov asked:

Dear Rabbi

Shalom U'vracha

Thank you for very useful Shi'urim

In Insights for Daf 82B you mention Rambam's silence on Issue of teaching children Torah only vs. Torah and profession. In my opinion Rambam spoke so abundantly on this issue that the question appears to be baseless.

1. The attitude of Rambam is clearly exemplified by the following scheme:

provide for your financial needs, so you can sustain your physical health, so you can achieve ethical perfection (Midos), so you can achieve intellectual perfection, so you would know your Creator. Mishnah Torah, Perush Ha'Mishnayos and Moreh Nevuchim are all very consistent with this scheme.

2. Rambam severely criticizes Talmidei Chachamim that are without profession:

דרך בעלי דעה, שיקבע לו אדם מלאכה המפרנסת אותו תחילה, ואחר כך יקנה בית דירה, ואחר כך יישא אישה--שנאמר "מי האיש אשר נטע כרם, ולא חיללו . . . אשר בנה בית חדש . . . אשר אירש אישה" (ראה דברים כ,ה-ז).

כד אבל הטיפשים, מתחילין לישא אישה, ואחר כך אם תמצא ידו יקנה בית, ואחר כך בסוף ימיו יחזור לבקש אומנות או יתפרנס מן הצדקה; וכן הוא אומר בקללות, "אישה תארש . . . בית תבנה . . . כרם תיטע" (דברים כח,ל)--כלומר יהיו מעשיך הפוכין, כדי שלא תצליח דרכיך. ובברכה מה הוא אומר, "ויהי דויד לכל דרכיו, משכיל; וה', עימו" (שמואל א יח,יד).

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כל המשים על ליבו שיעסוק בתורה ולא יעשה מלאכה, ויתפרנס מן הצדקה--הרי זה חילל את השם, וביזה את התורה, וכיבה מאור הדת, וגרם רעה לעצמו, ונטל חייו מן העולם הבא: לפי שאסור ליהנות בדברי תורה, בעולם הזה.

י אמרו חכמים, כל הנהנה מדברי תורה, נטל חייו מן העולם. ועוד ציוו ואמרו, לא תעשם עטרה להתגדל בהם, ולא קורדום לחפור בהם. ועוד ציוו ואמרו, אהוב את המלאכה, ושנוא את הרבנות. וכל תורה שאין עימה מלאכה, סופה בטילה; וסוף אדם זה, שיהא מלסטס את הברייות.

יא מעלה גדולה היא למי שהוא מתפרנס ממעשה ידיו, ומידת חסידים הראשונים היא; ובזה זוכה לכל כבוד וטובה שבעולם הזה, ולעולם הבא: שנאמר "יגיע כפיך, כי תאכל; אשריך, וטוב לך" (תהילים קכח,ב)--"אשריך" בעולם הזה, "וטוב לך" לעולם הבא שכולו טוב.

3 Finally in Laws of Talmud Torah Rambam states that this world's life is from the father (this will include procreation and education of worldly matters (Derech Eretz, but Chochmah of Rebbi will bring him to Olam Ha'Ba

כשם שאדם מצווה בכבוד אביו, וביראתו--כך הוא חייב בכבוד רבו, ויראתו; ורבו, יתר מאביו: שאביו, הביאו לחיי העולם הזה; ורבו שלימדו חכמה, הביאו לחיי העולם הבא

From all that we should concede that Rambam follows Rabbi Meir, and not Rabbi Nehorai, as long as person doesn't make his Melachah the goal of his life

המנהיג עצמו על פי הרפואה--אם שם על ליבו שיהיה כל גופו ואבריו שלמים חזקים בלבד, ושיהיו לו בנים עושין מלאכתו ועמלין לצורכו--אין זו דרך טובה. אלא ישים על ליבו שיהא גופו שלם חזק, כדי שתהיה נפשו ישרה לדעת את ה', שאי אפשר שיבין וישתכל בחכמות, והוא חולה או אחד מאבריו כואב; וישים על ליבו שיהיה לו בן, אוליי יהיה חכם וגדול בישראל.

Boruch Yuabov, NY, USA

The Kollel replies:

It is not uncommon for people to make the sweeping statement that the Rambam was "opposed to earning a living from Torah." This is patently false. The Rambam himself was in a Yissachar-Zevulun partnership with his brother who was a merchant. This only stopped when his brother was killed in a shipwreck on a business trip to India. It is true that the Rambam did not permit "being paid" to learn Torah, and it is widely held that this is why he opened his practice in medicine (see the introduction to the Letters of the Rambam published by Mossad Harav Kook).

Additionally, the Shach (Y.D. 246:20) quotes many commentaries who argue on the Rambam, and says that the custom clearly follows their opinion. He says that without people being paid to learn, Torah would have been forgotten from Israel. Therefore, the Shach states, even if the law should follow the Rambam, it is clearly under the category of "Eis La'asos La'Hashem Heifeiru Torasecha" to permit this today, the same reason Rebbi used for writing down the Oral Torah. The Rambam would clearly agree to this. After all, do you think that the Rambam preferred that Torah be forgotten?

Additionally, is being in kollel deemed "being paid?" The Binyan Olam says that in many kollels where the stipend being paid is well below minimum wage, the Rambam would agree this is not called being paid. This logic is not a new creation, but rather the same way Dayanim are paid, known as "Sechar Batalah" -- "being paid for abstaining from work" (as they cannot be paid for judging). All of the above is clear reason, without having to be apologetic, why learning in kollel is not only permitted, but praiseworthy. It is also the reason why you now have an answer to your question.

All the best,

Yaakov Montrose

Boruch Yuabov responded:

Thank you for very interesting answer.

1.Issahar /Zavulun relationship is not an example of being paid to study Torah, but silent partnership/investment of Issahar's resources in Zevuluns business which is totally permitted by Talmud ( Could anybody in a normal state of mind imagine that entire tribe of Issahar was not utilizing natural resources of their chelek in Eretz Israel, but was studying Torah, and being paid for it by Zevulun)

2.Instead of hypothesizing what was the relationship between Rambam and his brother, look what he wrote in Perush Hamishnayot Perkei Avot about non working Talmid Chaham, this was at the time that his brother was well and alive, way before Rambam set up his medical practice.

3.I completely agree, that any student at the time of intense study should be supported by somebody, but to make it a life long habit, is not recommended neither by Talmud, nor by Rambam, and what is even more important not by common sense. Rabbi Akiva calls it a curse (to be supported by a community), Rambam states that this teaches a person to be Gas Ruach (Mishne Torah), because it leads to self-centered view of this world (Moreh Nevuchim). But even more dangerous is the Chilul Hashem that it produces (see Mishne Torah)

4.By the way Rabbi Nehorai never teaches others the Halacha, he just states what he will do to his son. He very well could have been a wealthy person, that's why this personal example cannot be used as a rule.

The Kollel replies:

1. Out of the many Poskim who have described a Yissachar/Zevulun relationshiop, I do not know of a single one who has ever held that a condition for a Yissachar/Zevulun partnership is that Yissachar have assets invested with Zevulun. Whether or not this was the case regarding Yissachar is therefore irrelevant.

2. This is not a hypothesis. You can find this documented in Igros Ha'Rambam from Mossad Harav Kook (pg. 83). Additionally, I answered the rest of what the Rambam wrote in Pirush Hamishnayos in my full answer, which may have been cut off by mistake during editing. In case it was cut off, here it is:

"Additionally, the Shach (Y.D. 246:20) quotes many commentaries who argue on the Rambam, and says that the custom clearly follows their opinion. He says that without people being paid to learn, Torah would have been forgotten from Israel. Therefore, the Shach states, even if the law should follow the Rambam, it is clearly under the category of "Eis La'asos La'Hashem Heifeiru Torasecha" to permit this today, the same reason Rebbi used for writing down the Oral Torah. The Rambam would clearly agree to this. After all, do you think that the Rambam preferred that Torah be forgotten?

Additionally, is being in kollel deemed "being paid?" The Binyan Olam says that in many kollels where the stipend being paid is well below minimum wage, the Rambam would agree this is not called being paid. This logic is not a new creation, but rather the same way Dayanim are paid, known as "Sechar Batalah" -- "being paid for abstaining from work" (as they cannot be paid for judging). All of the above is clear reason, without having to be apologetic, why learning in kollel is not only permitted, but praiseworthy. It is also the reason why you now have an answer to your question."

3. Would you also say that a person cannot enter a Yissachar/Zevulun relationship for his entire life? This is certainly contradictory to R' Moshe Feinstein's long responsa in the last volume of Igros Moshe, where he explains that the goal of this partnership is that Yissachar will be able to master the entire Torah, which is more or less a lifelong task, and is the reason behind a Yissaachar/Zevulun partnership. I would say that the opposite of your comment is correct. To make it a life long habit, is recommended by the Talmud, Rambam, and by common sense.

Regarding your quotes above from Rebbi Akiva, Rambam, etc. I'm sure you realize by now that these quotes do not apply to our situation of Yissachar/Zevulun (nor does it apply based on my answer above in 2.).

4. I don't think that this suggestion is correct at all. Rebbi Nehorai gives reasons why this is the best job. He doesn't say that he is wealthy and doesn't need a job, so why not learn Torah.

In closing, I would suggest that you read responsa about a Yissachar/Zevulun partnership before pursuing this claim further.

Sincerely wishing you all the best,

Yaakov Montrose