More Discussions for this daf
1. Saving property from fire - d'Oraisa? 2. Pesik Reishei and Einah Tzerichah l'Gufa 3. Being Motzi others with Lechem Mishnah
4. Lechem Mishneh must be Shalem?
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 117

David Greenstone asked:

You said on 117a that the gemara calls skinning the animal for another purpose a Davar sh'Eino iskaven. The gemara never did such a thing. I would assume that you are saying this because the gemara asks abayee vrava... which usualy goes on a Davar sh'Eino Miskaven. However, logically this should apply to a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah as well. I think that is what the gemara is referring to. (If you look at Rashi he describes a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah albeit acc. to Tos. pshat earlier and not his own.) According to pashut pshat (Tos.) a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah just means that you don't have the same kavana as what they did in the mishkan. If however, you do a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah and you are happy with the result that happened in the mishkan then l'aaniyas daati you should be chayav.

This was very vague. Let me give an example.

This is all shitas R' Shimon:

If you put out a fire for coal: chayav

put out a fire for dark: patur

open the door and the fire goes out: mutar

open the door and the fire will definitely go out and you are happy that it is dark in the room but could'nt care less about the coal: machlokes rishonim - either mutar or patur

open the door and the fire will definitely go out and you are happy about the coal: chayav

put out a fire for dark but there will definitely be coal and you are happyabout the coal: I have not seen this case discussed anywhere (please help) but you should be chayav

How could that last case be better (not chayav) than the case before it (chayav). If you agree that you are chayav then you agree that there is such a thing as pseik reisha v'nicha leih even by a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah.

This could explain our gemara as well as the gemara on 103a. There the gemara actually uses the term niskaven but I think it also means a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah.

I did not see R' Akiva Eiger and obviously his question won't fit in with what I said but besides that is this a possibility?

David Greenstone

The Kollel replies:

Your explanation is excellent explains the Sugya very nicely according to the explanation of Rashi. (It seems that Tosfos, the Aruch (103a) and Rebbi Akive Eiger here do not agree with this logic. Their reasoning seems to be because they maintain that if a person performs a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah and he is also happy with the Melachah itself (that is, the outcome of the Melachah which is Tzerichah l'Gufah), it is no longer called a Melachah sh'Einah Tzerichah l'Gufah but rather it is a Melachah sh'Tzerichah l'Gufah, u'l'Davar Acher. Therefore, the term "Pesik Reshei" is not relevant at all.

Regards,

M. KORNFELD