More Discussions for this daf
1. Natrikon 2. Hebrew vowels 3. The Days of Yehoshua ben Nun
4. Ma'aseh Merkavah 5. The Letters MaNTzPa"Ch 6. Double Kaf
7. Nevuv and Buvan; Both Sides of the Luchos
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 104

David Kornblum asks:

Dear Rabbi Kornfeld,

I have 2 questions that came up to me when I was learning the Daf. Please anwer them for me as soon as you can.

(a) Why does the Gemara single out the days of Yehoshua ben Nun when the stundents teach about the Aleph Beit?

(b) Who were these students?

Thank you so much for always giving me wonderful answers.

David Kornblum

The Kollel replies:

(a) The simple answer to your question is that we can never say that something is so original that even Moshe Rabeinu was not aware of it. For Moshe, the entire Torah was clear, even what a Talmid Vasik will be Mechadesh (Megilah 19b, Vayikra Raba 22, see Ohr Ha'Chayim Vayikra 13:37). Therefore, the most we can say is that even in the times of Yehoshua it was not known.

(This is not the way Rav Yaakov Emden understand the Gemara. He explains that even in the days of Yehoshua, no children said what these Dardekei said.)

On a deeper level, I saw in the Chida's Midbar Kedemos (Erech Nun), citing the Megaleh Amukos, that the mention of Yehoshua bin Nun is alluding that the Dardekei were revealing deep secrets about Binah when they taught that there are two types of Nun ("Ne'eman Pashut, Ne'eman Kafuf"; there are fifty - Nun - levels of Binah). The Megaleh Amukos discusses some of these secrets at great length).

Isn't it interesting that the printers of the Talmud put an abbreviation notation in middle of the word "Nun"?

(b) I believe I saw it quoted that they were Rebbi Eliezer ben Hurkanus and Rebbi Akiva, but I do not have my Sefarim with me now and I cannot find the source.

(Dardekei means Talmidim who have not yet mastered the methods of analyzing the Torah, Rashi Shabbos 145b, see also Shabbos 142b. Thus the Gemara may be referring to two separate incidents in which Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Akiva, respectively, showed their wisdom when they just began to learn about the Torah - both were Ba'alei Teshuvah. Rebbi Eliezer was much older than Rebbi Akiva and Rebbi Akiva considered him his mentor, see for example Pesachim 6:2.)

Best wishes,

M. KORNFELD