More Discussions for this daf
1. Moshe added a day on his own 2. "Shichvas Zera Masreches" after three days 3. Why does the Gemara work backwards to Rosh Chodesh Nisan to calculate Rosh Chodesh Sivan
4. Source for Ten Commandments on sapphire tablets
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 87

Mark Bergman asked:

On Daf 87, the Gemoro discusses the date of Matan Torah. Reb Yosi holds that Matan Torah was on the 7th of Sivan, the Chachomim hold that it was on the 6th of Sivan. The Gemoro explains that everyone holds that Matan Torah was on Shabbos, and that (at this stage in the Gemoro) everyone holds that Yetzias Mitzraim was on a Thurs.; the Gemoro thus explains that the Machloikes is whether Iyar was molai (30 days), and whether Moshe Rabbeinu added a day of Prisha: according to Reb Yosi, Iyar was Choser (29 days) hence Rosh Chodesh Sivan was on Sun., but Moshe Rabbeinu added a day so Mattan Torah was on Shabbos the 7th; according to Chachomim, Iyar was Molai hence Rosh Chodesh Sivan was on Mon., and no extra day was added, so Mattan Torah was on Shabbos the 6th.

My question is that according to both opinions, Mattan Torah was on the 51st day after Yetzias Mitzraim, not the 50th day. According to Reb Yosi that Moshe added a day - this is not surprising, but according to Chachomim it is! The general assumption is that we keep Sefiras HoOmer in line with the events of that year, or at least with what would have been had Moshe not added a day. (See Haghos Reb Ze'ev Ben Aryeh - the father of Reb Yisroel Salanter - at the back of the Gemoro, also Mogen Avrohom in Shulchan Oruch, start of Hilchos Shovuos).

Is it possible that the Chachomim also agree that Moshe added a day somehow? or do we just say that even according to Chachomim - Mattan Torah was just not on the 50th day!?

Regards and Kol Tuv,

Mark Bergman mlb@syseca01.demon.co.uk

Manchester, UK

The Kollel replies:

The question you ask is indeed discussed by the Magen Avraham. Below follows what we wrote in the Insights section to Daf 87a:

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1) ON WHAT DAY DOES SHAVUOS FALL

QUESTION: The Tur and Shulchan Aruch (OC 494:1) say that Shavuos falls on the sixth of Iyar, fifty days after the day of bringing the Omer offering (the second day of Pesach). This implies that Iyar of the year that the Torah was given was not a full (Malei) month, but was 29 days long, for if Iyar of that year was 30 days long, Matan Torah would have been on the fifty-*first* day after the day of the Omer offering, and not the fiftieth.

Our Sugya seems to conclude that according to the Rabanan, who maintain that the Torah was given on the sixth of Sivan, there were indeed fifty-*one* days between Pesach and Shavuos (since the Gemara (87b) resolves the Beraisa which conflicts with the opinion of the Rabanan by saying that Iyar of that year had 30 days). How, then, can we rule that Shavuos is on the sixth of Sivan and only fifty days after the day of the Omer offering?

Besides, no matter how we rule, according to both Rebbi Yosi and the Rabanan, the Torah was given on the fifty-first day. According to the Rabanan Iyar was 30 days, as we explained above, and according to Rebbi Yosi Iyar was 29 days but the Torah was given on the 7th of Sivan, or 51 days after the day of the Omer offering.

ANSWERS:

(a) The MACHTZIS HA'SHEKEL explains that this question is only a question if the Jewish people left Egypt on a Thursday (which would mean that there are fifty-one days between the second day of Pesach (Friday) and the day they received the Torah (Shabbos)). The Seder Olam, though, says that they left Egypt on a Friday , and thus the Torah, which was given on a Shabbos, was given fifty days later. (The Seder Olam also states that the Man started falling on a Monday. Even though the Gemara derived from verses that the Man started falling on a Sunday, this inference is not at all explicit in the verses, and the simple understanding of the verses does not imply that the Man started falling on a Sunday). We rule like the Seder Olam, and not like the Gemara.

(It should be noted that according to the Seder Olam, the tenth of Nisan (the day that the animals for the Korban Pesach were designated) was not Shabbos but Sunday -- contrary to what the TUR in OC 430 quotes from the Seder Olam -- since the Jews left Egypt on a Friday, as the PERISHAH points out.)

(b) The SEFAS EMES explains that the TUR holds that the Jewish people went out of Egypt on a Thursday (as he says in OC 430), and that the Torah was given on a Friday and not on Shabbos (as the Pirkei d'Rebbi Eliezer ch. 46 maintains). The Sefas Emes himself points out that this is problematic, because the Tur himself (OC 292) states that the Torah was given on Shabbos.

(c) The RIVASH (#96) writes that the festival of Shavuos has nothing to do with the day upon which the Torah was given. Shavuos comes fifty days after the day of the Omer offering, whether or not it falls on the day that the Torah was given. The reason we call Shavuos "Z'man Matan Toraseinu" is because the way our calendar is set up, the festival falls on the sixth of Sivan, which is the day of the month on which the Torah was given (according to the Rabanan, whose opinion we follow). Unlike the day upon which the Torah was given, our 6th of Sivan falls fifty days after the Omer offering, while the original day of Matan Torah was fifty-one days after the Omer (because they left Egypt on a Thursday and received the Torah on Shabbos, as our Gemara states).

(d) The MAGEN AVRAHAM (OC 494) cites from SEFER ASARAH MA'AMAROS that by adding a day on his own, Moshe Rabeinu alluded to the second day of Yom Tov which is observed outside of Israel. Thus, the Torah was actually supposed to have been given on the fiftieth day after the Omer of that first year, which is why our holiday begins on the fiftieth day after the Omer. The Torah was actually given on the fifty-first day to symbolize that that day would be Yom Tov as well, when the Jews would go into exile. That is, just like Moshe Rabeinu made that day into the day of Kabalas ha'Torah, the Rabanan would later make that day into Yom Tov. The BEIS HA'LEVI (Parshas Yisro) expounds on the idea cited by the Magen Avraham. The Beis ha'Levi explains that even though the Jewish people received the Torah on the fifty-first day, the day that the Torah was given was the fiftieth day, as we shall explain.

The Gemara (88b) says that the angels did not want the Torah to be given to Moshe. Why not? What were the angels going to do with the Torah? As Moshe Rabeinu argued, none of the Mitzvos are applicable to heavenly bodies; they are relevant only for humans!

The Gemara (Bava Metzia 61a) states that the verse "Lo ba'Shamayim Hi" ("the Torah is not in the heavens") means that the authority to expound and elucidate the Torah is not in the heavens, but was to the Sages. The angels argued that this authority should not be given to man, because they did not think that it was appropriate for man to have the power to legislate in Torah matters.

Moshe's decision to delay by one day the giving of the Torah was based on a Hekesh, as the Gemara explains ("just like the second day of Perishah was a day that follows a night, so, too, the first day must be a day that follows a night"). By using a Hekesh to derive a Torah law (i.e. the day that the Torah should be given), Moshe Rabeinu was asserting that the Torah was given to man to expound. The Gemara adds that indeed, Hash-m agreed to Moshe's action.

Therefore, even if we rule in accordance with Rebbi Yosi that we received the Torah on the seventh day, that was the day of Kabalas ha'Torah , when the Jews received the Torah. The day before, though, was the day of Matan Torah, when Hash-m gave man the ability to make decisions regarding the Torah.