More Discussions for this daf
1. A "Teku" not relevant to Halachah, etc. 2. Sharp questions Dapim 36-49 3. Wrapping of Tefilin when putting them away
4. How was it possible to plant and plow in the desert? 5. Rashi on "Techeles" as the source for sowing and reaping 6. Hatmanah
7. אבא שלחא הוה 8. תפילין צריכין גוף נקי כאלישע בעל כנפים
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 49

Eli Turkel asked:

A few short questions

1. Rav Chanina bar Chama states in the name of Rabbi Yishmael the son

of Rabbi Yose in the name of his father a halacha. The gemara then

asks from a beraisa. How can we ask on a tanna from a beraisa. In

fact the Gemara later brings an explicit beraisa in which Rabbi Yose

states his opinion. Why is there a difference if Rabbi Yose's opinion

is in a Beraisa or if an Amora has a direct quote from a Tanna?

2. The gemara discusses which pasuk is used for one of the 39 melachot

and ends with a "teku". What is the meaning of "teku" when there is

no practical difference which pasuk of melacha is included?

3. Rav Yosef discussed the above question of which pasuk should be used.

Abaye asks why not just count the pasukim. There is a similar exchange

in Kiddushin where Rav Yosef states that the vav of Gachon is the

middle of the Torah but asks if it belongs to the first or second half.

The Gemara and later Abaye asks why not hust the letters or pasukim.

Thus, in both cases Rav Yosef makes the statement and Abaye asks why

not just count.

Is there a deeper connection between the two sugyot?

Kol Tuv,

Eli Turkel

The Kollel replies:

1. Excellent question. It seems that RASHI (DH v'Amar) was also bothered by your question, and that is why he explained that when the father of Rebbi Yishmael (i.e. Rebbi Yosi) said that he used hides to for sitting on, he was referring to during the week. He never said explicitly that he used them to sit on during Shabbos -- that was Rebbi Chanina bar Chama's extrapolation. Perhaps he only sat on it on weekdays, but on Shabbos considered it Muktzah. Therefore, the "Meisivei" is going on the Amora, Rebbi Chanina bar Chama, and not on Rebbi Yishmael bar Rebbi Yosi or his father! (See also the P'NEI YEHOSHUA who asks your question and also gives this answer.)

According to Tosfos, who explains that Rebbi Yosi used the hides to sit on during Shabbos , your question still remains -- how can the Gemara ask on a Tana from another Beraisa? We must answer that the "Meisivei" here does not mean to refute the opinion of this Tana. Rather, it means to say that this is not the only opinion, and that the issue is the subject of a Machlokes Tana'im, as the Gemara indeed concludes.

2. Good question. First of all, the Gemara occasionally concludes with a "Teku" even when there is no practical ramification. Second, in this case of "Teku," there indeed is a practical ramification, as explained by Rav Menachem Kasher in TORAH SHELEIMAH (Bereishis 39, #97):

The Mefarshim explain that when the verse says that Yosef went into the house to do his work, he went in to take care of some accounting work (l'Chashev Cheshbonos). If the word "Melachah" which appears with regard to Yosef ("And he entered the house to do his Melachah") is the one which is included as one of the 39 mentions of "Melachah," then we could derive from here that being m'Chashev Cheshbonos on Shabbos is Asur mid'Oraisa. If, on the other hand, the "Melachah" written in that verse is not one of the 39, then being m'Chashev Cheshbonos on Shabbos is only Asur mid'Rabanan.

3. (a) It could be simply that they discussed these two Sugyas at the same time, when they were discussing the count of words and such in the Torah, and Abaye suggested in both cases to just count.

(b) Furthermore, Rav Yosef was blind and therefore unable to count the words in the Torah himself. Abaye offered to count them for him.

According to RAV REUVEN MARGOLIOS, this is what Rav Yosef responded to Abaye -- " We [in particular] are not experts in Chaseiros [because we who are blind are unable to count the letters and words in the Torah, and we do not rely on you to count them for us]."

Dovid Cohen asks:

4) In our ovens today are we allowed to return?

The Kollel replies:

In the appendix to Sefer hilchos Shabos by Rav S. Eider (vol. 4 32) Rav Moshe Feinstein explains that our ovens have the same status as our stove tops, which is that of a Kirah. Therefore one may not return food to the oven unless the food in the oven is covered on all sides (e.g. it is in the type of box-like insert that some people use for Pesach).

The reason for this is that the Gemara is more stringent with ovens than with Kiros because the heat of their ovens was extremely intense due to their conelike design (wide base, narrow top). Our ovens do not have this problem, and they are thermostatically controlled.

Kol Tuv

Ilan Segal