More Discussions for this daf
1. The wording on question and answer sheets 2. Niduy vs. Shamta 3. Niduy
4. Leket 5. Dasan and Aviram

Dov Krieger asked:

(a) B"H It is difficult to understand the partial declaration of a neder. Are we to understand a yado as not pronouncing a set formula? Is it resolved that a yado must have intent and not just a mindless statement?

(b) On 7b, we see the usage of the word nidui for excommunication and Rambam(hil.Torah 7:2) explains nidui and shamta as synonymous. Yet the shamta involves a curse! How can nidui which involves only excommunication for a period of time(30 days?) be used with shamta which involves a curse? For example, Rav Chanin said in the name of Rav "One who hears a mention of the Name from his fellow's mouth is required to b'nidui the offender" Then we see Rav Abba said I was standing before Rav Huna- he heard a certain woman express a mention of the Name in vain.

SHAMTA He excommunicated her ... While the Artscroll says it will use the translation of "excommunication" according to Rambam, the Gemara must have a reason for using this differently unless it is simply because it was uttered by different people.

Thank you for your assistance.

Dovber Eliezer Krieger

The Kollel replies:

(a) A Yad is not a mindless statement. A Neder needs Da'as and one who did not have in mind to make a Neder will never end up with a Neder. The Halachah of Yados (which is learned from a Pasuk) tells us that although one must speak in order to make a Neder and it is insufficient to merely think it, a partial statement -- the intent of which is clear -- is also considered speech with regard to Nedarim.

(b) Although it might be permissible to disagree with the Rambam, it is frivolous to do so without a source. I do not see a reason to differentiate between Shamta and Niduy. Below is a list of those who are Chayav Niduy (taken from our "Background to the Daf"), for which the Gemara says "Shamta" with regard to many of them.

Dov Zupnick


[I] MENUDEH/MUCHRAM (NIDUY/CHEREM - excommunication)

(a) A person is put into Niduy for 24 things:

1] One who shames a Chacham who toils in Torah and is worthy to rule in Halachic matters, even after the Chacham has died

2] One who shames a messenger of Beis Din

3] One who calls another Jew a slave

4] A person who did not come to Beis Din at the time appointed for him

5] One who treats one of the Torah laws or Rabbinical laws with disrespect

6] One who did not accept the verdict of the Beis Din is put into Niduy until he complies

7] One who has in his domain something that causes damage is put into Niduy until he removes it

8] One who sells his land to a powerful Nochri is put into Niduy until he accepts upon himself to pay for all damages that will be caused to the Jews who live on the adjoining properties

9] One who testifies against another Jew in the courts of the Nochrim and as a result the Jew's money was taken away, where the ruling was in violation of the principles of Torah Law, is put into Niduy until he pays

10] A Kohen who is a butcher and does not give the priestly gifts (see Background to Megilah 28:1) to another Kohen is put into Niduy until he gives them

11] One who does not keep the second day of Yom Tov outside of Eretz Yisrael

12] One who does Melachah on Erev Pesach after midday

13] One who pronounces HaSh-m's name in vain or in an unnecessary vow

14] One who causes many people to eat Kodshim outside of the places in which it is permitted to eat them

15] One who causes many people to act in a way that causes Chilul Ha'Sh-m

16] One who calculates the months and years and proclaims them outside of Eretz Yisrael

17] One who causes a blind person to stumble, i.e. who causes another person to sin

18] One who prevents the public from doing a Mitzvah

19] A butcher who sold a Tereifah animal

20] A butcher who did not show his knife to a Chacham to be checked (this does not apply today)

21] ha'Maksheh Atzmo la'Da'as

22] One who divorces his wife and then makes a partnership to do business with her, which causes them to come in contact with each other. They are put into Niduy when they come to Beis Din

23] A Chacham about whom bad things are said

24] A person who puts someone else into Niduy unjustly

(SHULCHAN ARUCH Yoreh Deah 334:43, based upon the RAMBAM Hilchos Talmud Torah 6:14)

(b) The minimum period of Niduy is thirty days in Eretz Yisrael or seven days in Bavel and elsewhere. If the Menudeh does not repent from his ways he is put into Niduy for a second thirty-day period. If he still does not repent, he is then put into Cherem. The laws of Cherem are much more stringent.

(c) No one may come within four Amos of the Menudeh, except for his wife and family. He is not permitted to eat or drink with other people, nor is he included in a Zimun or any other Mitzvah that requires a quorum of ten men. He may not wash his clothes, shave or take a haircut or wear shoes. Learning and teaching Torah, however, are permitted, as well as engaging in work. The last two are not permitted to a Muchram, who must learn by himself and engage in work to the minimum that will provide him daily sustenance. People may speak with the Menudeh or the Muchram unless Beis Din specifically prohibits it.

(d) Even if the time of the Cherem or Niduy has finished, a person remains in Niduy or Cherem until he is permitted by three commoners or by an expert sage (Shulchan Aruch 334:27 and Rema 334:24)