More Discussions for this daf
1. Ailonis 2. Vasectomy & Yibum 3. Rabbi and the Nesinim
DAF DISCUSSIONS - YEVAMOS 79

Jhos Singer asked:

What specific role did an aylonit play in the culture of our ancestors? Was she regarded as having a different role than an ishah? Since she didn't have children herself was her gender role somewhat different from that of a procreative female? I am also interested in similar questions pertaining to sarisim. B"H--todah raba--Jhos Singer

Jhos Singer, Berkeley, CA USA

The Kollel replies:

An Aylonis in fact did not play any specific role in Jewish culture. Being a woman who could not have children and was not very feminine, as is apparent from the different telltale signs of an Aylonis listed in the Gemara in Yevamos (80b), she was generally not a very attractive candidate for marriage. However, there were some women who were an Aylonis and were able to get married, most notably Sara Imeinu, as noted in Yevamos (64b). The IYUN YAAKOV says there that Avraham agreed to the marriage despite the fact that Sara was an Aylonis (it was therefore quite a miracle when she had Yitzchak). Additionally, Tosfos in Yevamos (2b, DH "Oh she'Nimtzi'oo") says that if a woman is married and she is found to be an Aylonis, the Kedushin is invalid, as the husband did not want to marry an Aylonis. If he does not mind the fact that she is an Aylonis, the Kedushin is valid (see Iyun Yaakov above who explains this in Tosfos). The mere fact that this Halachah is mentioned shows that some women were able to get married despite the fact that they were an Aylonis. It therefore follows that as there were probably not a significant number of such women at any given time, and some were able to live a semi-normal life as a woman to the extent that they could get married, they did not have that different of a role than women who could not have children, or had difficulty getting married, for other reasons.

As pointed out by the Mishna in Yevamos (79b), the type of Sarisim mentioned in the Torah are not exactly in the same class as an Aylonis. While an Aylonis is permitted to marry a regular Jewish man, a Sris is forbidden to marry a regular Jewish woman (and can only marry a convert). Without going into great detail about the different types of Srisim, and which people are not the type of Sris mentioned in the Torah, there are some who can still have marital relations and therefore indeed do get married to converts and carry on a normal life. (I personally know of people like this today, and most of their friends have absolutely no idea that they are a Sris). Some who cannot get married do not exactly advertise this fact, and fit into society like other older bachelors. The Pasuk in Yeshaya (56:4) strengthens such people to concentrate on the main point of life, which is the service of Hash-m, and not get sidetracked by their difficult situation. If they do so, Hash-m will reward them greatly. Using the same logic as noted in the paragraph regarding an Aylonis, there never really was a specific role in Jewish culture for these people. They have always served Hash-m alongside the rest of the Jewish nation.

Take Care,

Yaakov Montrose

Michael Goldrich comments:

Without suggesting any argument against the Iyun Yaakov (Chas v'shalom), most sources suggest that the Aylonis is incapable of becoming pregnant lacking not only secondary sexual characteristics but likely the presence of female reproductive organs. It seems much more reasonable to suggest that Sarah had a lifetime of infertility but had normal female anatomy especially recognizing the infertility among the other imahot.

Michael S. Goldrich, MD

The Kollel replies:

The Iyun Yaakov is not the one saying that Sara was an Aylonis. The Gemara in Yevamos (64b) clearly states that Sara was an Aylonis and had no womb. Even though she was an Aylonis originally, Hash-m miraculously gave her a womb and other feminine characteristics before she gave birth to Yitzchak.

Jhos Singer asked:

I think that the core teaching in all of it is exactly what you say towards the end of your missive, and here I say it in my own way, that each of us are here to serve HaShem, and those of us who are created unique, (and who isn't?), are given the opportunity to serve uniquely.

I am fascinated with this subject, ie: gender roles. The fact that HaShem created us with both the obvious binary pardigm and the more subtle variations is one of the sacred mysteries that I think we are here to reveal. The Torah and the rabbis of the talmudic period seem to me to be more empathic and unfazed by the variations in gender than our world is today. Perhaps, instead of attempting to make everyone fit a particular mold, we should be trying to understand and honor what HaShem is up to with all of this. It is clear that the dominant paradigm will succeed just fine (The one mitzvah our species has fulfilled without a doubt is 'be fruitful and multiply'!) and perhaps, as it is written in Isaiah 56:4, those who are created for a purpose other than procreation can still serve and will be honored (my paraphrase).

I am just beginning my study on this topic from a Jewish point of view. I am sluggish with Aramaic and so the study is slow and I need to ammend much of what I study with English text. I have a great chevruta but our time together is limited, and I do a lot of prep on my own. I would be grateful to you for any advice you could gvie me as to which texts I should delve into. I have already been studying Rosh Hashannah 29a, Yevamot 79, Niddah 47 which cover material dealing with some of what determines a persons status as aylonit, tumtum, androgynos as well as some exploration of principles regarding obligation (personal and communal). I have not found references to the obvious siminim of a woman's menses be absent as a determining factor in her status--it must exist, nu? Also, I am very interested in leaning about the role of the saris adam culturally as well as spiritually. Any help you could offer, either in the form of more of your own insight, or just pointing me to the germane dafim, would be very appreciated.

Kol Tuv, Jhos Singer

The Kollel replies:

There are many sources that one can use to better understand the Halachos of an Androgynos, Aylonis, and a Tumtum.

For an Androgynos, an important source is the fourth chapter of Mishnayos Bikurim (called "Androgenous"), which solely deals with the laws of an Androgynos.

When you say that you have seen Yevamos 79, I assume that means that you have continued through 80b, which is probably the clearest source for determining who is an Aylonis and a Seris.

There are times when it is uncertain whether or not a Tumtum or Androgyonos is actually experiencing a woman's menses, as is discussed in Nidah (28a-b).

As pointed out by the Mishna in Yevamos (79b), the type of Sarisim mentioned in the Torah are not exactly in the same class as an Aylonis. While an Aylonis is permitted to marry a regular Jewish man, a Saris is forbidden to marry a regular Jewish woman (and can only marry a convert). There never really was a specific role in Jewish culture for these people. They have always served Hash-m alongside the rest of the Jewish nation.

All the best,

Yaakov Montrose