More Discussions for this daf
1. Whether Ma'amar is Erusin or Nisu'in 2. "Wife" in Outlines 3. The third brother: Married or not?
4. Ma'amar Erusin and Hataras Nedarim 5. How can Rashi say Beis Shammai holds Ma'amar is de'Rabanan
DAF DISCUSSIONS - YEVAMOS 29

Mark Wagshul asks:

The gemara is trying to prove that maamar is not a form of erusin, and brings a proof from the fact that the shomeres yavam can annul her nedarim, but a na'ara hameorasa needs both the father and the husband. But what is troubling about this proof is, what does this have to do with us, are we only talking about a case of na'ara, a very limiting application of the sugia? Tosafos deals with the issue and in fact seems to suggest that in the end this is the only application.

Why can't you read the gemara in the following manner (I am wondering if you've ever seen such a suggestion):

If we treat maamar as erusin, then in our case where she has a zika from two people - and one with some form of erusin (i.e. if we consider ma'amar similar to erusin), why don't we compare this to the case of na'ara where she has a tie to both her father and to the husband and in that case both are required for hafara. And since we see that the yavam alone can be mefer, that is a proof that she has the status of a nesu'a! And, maybe this is exactly what the gemara is saying when it answers - that in fact what the gemara meant was that the yavam can be mefer with shutfus. That the yavam can be mefer with the shutfus of the other yavam (not with the girl's father as rashi reads it, which again would have very limited application). Would love to hear your thoughts about this radical reading of the gemara, but one which to me makes a lot more sense than the alternate reading which doesn't have much to do with our case.

Mark Wagshul, Stamford, CT

The Kollel replies:

The Gemara cannot mean that the Tavam can be Mefer with the Shutfus of the other Yavam, because only one Yavam did Ma'amar, so it follows that the two Yevamim are not equal and could not be Mefer together.

(This is not similar to what the Rashba asks, slightly earlier, DH Ela l'Trei: Why do we not say that the Yavam is Mefer with the Shutfus of the other Yavam? The Rashba is referring to the stage of the Gemara before Rebbi Ammi said that he did Ma'amar. Therefore, the two Yevamim are equal, so the Rashba asked that they should be Mefer b'Shutfus. This is stated by the Rashba when he writes "d'Hai Minaihu IKar" -- neither of them is the chief one. In contrast, if one of them had done Ma'amar, he is the chief one and it follows that the other cannot be Mefer together with him.)

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom