More Discussions for this daf
1. Cursing a judge 2. Side b- Cursing 3. Bnei Yaakov
4. Why bring proof for Teshuvah
DAF DISCUSSIONS - YEVAMOS 22

Avrumi Hersh asks:

22b middle

A) Why does the gemoro ask that a father of a mamzer is not oseh maaseh amcho. Maybe he was molid beshogeg or be'ones

B) The gemoro answers that he did teshuva, "like reb pinchos says, he did teshuva" why does the gemoro have to shlep to reb pinchos to find a musag of teshuva Reb pinchos is not at all related to this gemoro, he was just saying 1 thing in maseches chagiga, that ganovim who do teshuva are believed in tumah. That has absolutely nothing to do with oseh maaseh amcho?

Avrumi Hersh, London england

The Kollel replies:

Excellent questions! I did not find a discussion in the Mefarshim about your question, so I will try to offer an answer on my own.

1) I would like to propose a thought that answers both questions. Perhaps even if the act was a mistake, the child born from such an act cannot ever be considered -- as far as his relationship with his father is concerned -- as "Oseh Ma'aseh Amcha" just because the mere fact that he was born from an act which, regardless of how you view it, was a wrongdoing even by mistake. An act that causes the creation of a sin in the world can never be considered Ma'aseh Amcha. The Gemara answers that Teshuvah is so powerful that we can disconnect the act and its outcome from the person who did it, and if he did Teshuvah -- even if the son represents the sin -- the father is considered as though he did not sin, as far as the prohibition of hitting one's father is concerned.

2) According to this, we may say that the Chidush of the Gemara is that although a person did an act that cannot be nullified or canceled (since a child was born from his wrongdoing), one might say that even if the father realized his mistake and did "Teshuvah," that "Teshuvah" will not help him "erase" the past, and he is considered a "Ba'al Teshuvah" only for what is relevant from now on, but the status of the child who was born at the time his father sinned cannot be erased by doing Teshuvah. Rav Pinchas teaches that even though those Ganavim were sinners at the time they allegedly were Metamei the Kelim, when they do Teshuvah we may believe them even about things they say about the past, at the time they were still sinners.

Aharon Steiner

The Kollel adds:

After looking into this issues more, I found that your questions are so good that the first question is asked by the Rashash and the Aruch La'Ner, and the second by the Chasam Sofer.

A) The Rashash answers that even a person who sinned and committed adultery by mistake still needs to do Teshuvah and needs a Kaparah, and is not considered Oseh Ma'aseh Amcha until he does that minimal Teshuvah.

The Aruch la'Ner answers that the Mishnah must be refering in all of its cases to a Mamzer who was conceived through an act of Mezid (intentional sin) since, if the act was Shogeg (inadvertent), there is no Chidush in the fact that the child is considered a son and is forbidden to hit or curse the father, as it says in the Mishnah that he is Beno l'Chol Davar. Therefore, the Gemara assumes that the Mishnah is referring to a mamzer born from an intentional act.

B) The Chasam Sofer says that although the Gemara assumes that a person who had a Mamzer child cannot do Teshuvah since what he did is "Me'uvas" which cannot be fixed, he still is considered Oseh Ma'aseh Amcha" through his Teshuvah, which is enough to forbid the child to hit and curse him. This is because as far as what is relevant to our world, his Teshuvah was effective, while what this deed is considered "Klapei Shemaya" is not relevant for the status of "Oseh Ma'aseh Amcha." That is why the Gemara cites the teaching of Rav Pinchas. We see there that thieves who did Teshuvah are now believed and can testify. Rashi there (Chagigah 26a) explains that the Teshuvah they did includes just returning what they stole, but there is no need for their Teshuvah to contain any sign of real regret. Even so, they are now believed like any other Jew. (See also Kovetz He'aros, ch. 21, who explains at length the two aspects of Teshuvah: changing the sinner's behavior from now on, and a more deeper Teshuvah that can uproot the sin retroactively.)

Aharon Steiner