More Discussions for this daf
1. Status of Kelim used for the Efer ha'Parah 2. How similar must the 'Gezeirah' be by a 'Ma'aseh she'Hayah'? 3. Story of Boat with Tum'as Meis crossing the Jordan
4. רבי חנניה בן עקביא היא
DAF DISCUSSIONS - CHAGIGAH 23

Dov Reifer asked:

On Daf 23(b), the gemorrah states that R' Eliezer can also hold like our Mishna (that keilim hanigmarim b'taharah do not need haarev shemesh). Nevertheless, he holds that a cane used for efer chatas is considered like it was tamei from a sheretz. Although this kli needs haarev shemesh, the Chachamim were gozer that this Kli may be used for efer chatas immediately following its tevilah. The gemorrah asks on this teretz froma Braissa, which states that one who cuts the Kli and is Tovel the kli must be tovel--so how can this kli only be tamei tumas sheretz, a kli that has tumas sheretz cannot be metamai a person?

My question is--does this Braissa conform with the Shita of R' Yehoshua? Lichora, R' Yehoshua stated that we are metamai b'yadayim a kli used for efer parah with a sheretz. Thus, even according to R' Yehoshua, one should not be required to be tovel after cutting a kli used for efer parah? Also, the gemorrah's teretz that the kli has the status of kli that went through the hazaa process and can be metamai a person--lichora this teretz does not conform to R' Yehoshua's shita, since he holds this kli was only tamai misheretz?

Accordingly, the Braissa cited by the gemorrah to ask on the teretz that the kli has the status of tumas sheretz and the gemorrah's maskana, that the kli has a status of a kli that went through the hazaa process--this is only according to shitas R' Eliezer.

Correct?

Thank you,

Dov Reifer

The Kollel replies:

It is not quite the way you suggest. See the Rambam, who rules like Rebbi Yehoshua and who also rules that one who cuts the Kli is Tamei.

The Acharonim write that although we gave the Kli a Din of Tamei Mes b'Shevi'i, still Rebbi Yehoshua holds that there is no Heker l'Tzedukim if we are not actually Metamei the Kli. This is due to the fact that l'Kodesh we are never Makpid on a Kli she'Nigmar b'Taharah, and, therefore, although we gave this Kli a special status, still it would not be recognizable to the Tzedukim that we are using a Tevul Yom (see Tosfos Yom Tov).

D. Zupnik

Dov Reifer comments:

So therefore, if I understand what you are saying- although R' Yehoshua holds that we are metameh the kli with a sheretz, which normally does not transmit enough tumah to a person to require tevilah, here the Chachamim were gozer that this kli has a status of tamei mes b'shvi'i. The reason we are m'tamei the kli b'yadyim, then, is not to transmit tumas sheretz to the kli (since the kli has a higher status of tumah-tamei mes b'shvi'i), rather, the purpose of making the kli tamei b'yadayim with the sheretz is to show the Tzdukim that we are using a kli which has the status of a tevul yom.

Is this correct?

Thank you,

Dov Reifer

The Kollel replies:

This is correct. We use the Sheretz only to make it obviously Tamei.

D. Zupnik