More Discussions for this daf
1. The stories about Rebbi Yosi from Yukras 2. Binyan Bayis Sheni 3. Benefiting from Nisim, and other questions
4. Domeh Yafeh
DAF DISCUSSIONS - TA'ANIS 24

Chasidah B.D Fried asked:

1) Forgive me I am not inside the sefer now so I am guesstimating:

In the third perek of Ta'anis there is an aggadatah that bothers me very much: Rabbi Yose comes late to find his son has fed his workers...and after this incident his daughter is "chastised " I understand the pshat of not wanting to benefit from nissim&/or perhaps his son notbeing ruiy to benefit from nissim but I want to know if there is anyone who learns out the underlying rationale for his words as anything other than "Din Kashah" I don't have access to too many seforim where I am. (I am a mashgiach in a remote place.)

2) I would also like to know if there are any seforim which expound on the ta'amim. I would like to know about Yerach Ben Yomo and Karnei Farah. And when pesach is pronounced pasach . I have only ever heard one statement about munach that the Chasam sofer made as a "joke".

3) And last but not least I will IY'H be becoming a member this week (long awaited).

Chasidah B.D Fried, Manheim PA

The Kollel replies:

1) Please see the answer (pasted below) which we gave to a similar question asked previously.

2) The classic technical books on the Ta'amim are Rav Shlomo Zalmen Henne's "Sha'arei Zimrah" and Rav Menashe of Ilya's "Binas Mikra".

3) Thank you, your thoughtfulness is greatly appreciated.

All the best,

Mordecai Kornfeld

Kollel Iyun Hadaf

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The incidents that the Gemara records concerning the strictness of Rebbi Yosi of Yukras are indeed very difficult for us to understand. It is just worthwhile to point out that in the incident regarding his son, the Gemara does not say that his son actually died as a result of the curse (perhaps it would be hypocritical if he did: Rebbi Yosi rebuked his son by saying, "You were Matri'ach your Creator to bring forth fruits before their time, so, too, you should be gathered in [to your final resting place] before your time." If Rebbi Yosi really intended for his son to die early, then Rebbi Yosi himself would be Matri'ach his Creator to cause something natural to happen supernaturally before its time!).

In the case of his daughter, though, the Gemara does say that "so happened to her [that she died]" (however, these words do not appear in some manuscripts; see the Girsa of the Ein Yakov and the Dikdukei Sofrim). Moreover, it does not necessarily mean that she died; perhaps he meant that her beauty should return to that of dirt (as we find that ugliness is referred to as "darkness," the color of dirt, as we find on the bottom of 23b; see MAHARSHA).

Both incidents are emphasizing (1) the severity of demanding from Hash-m that He make any change in the natural order, since the natural order is so perfectly precise and in itself a miracle, and to demand a change in that order is to counter the will of Hash-m that He has for the way that the world should operate (SICHOS MUSAR of Rav Chaim Shmulevitz, zt'l, 5733 #8), and (2) the severity of causing others pain.

(See more regarding the incident of his daughter in "Tov Re'iyah," (by Harav Avraham Yitzchak Hakohen Kook zt'l) cited by Rav Yosef Ben-Arza in "Yosef Da'as." The Tov Re'iyah points out that Rebbi Yosi, and his daughter, understood that it would be a special Zechus for the daughter, and her purpose for being created, to die in order to prevent others from sinning because of her.)

Y. Shaw

The Kollel adds:

Rav Tzadok ha'Kohen says a couple of things which are germane to this piece of Agadeta. In Pri Tzadik (Miketz,10) he says that Nisim Geluyim - miracles that require a Shinuy in Sidrei Bereishis such as those performed at Yetzi'as Mitzrayim - are performed when the recipient of the miracle is not deserving of the miracle (as was the case at Yetzi'as Mitzrayim). In other words a Nes Galuy is ironically an indication of the low Madreigah that the recipient is on. For this reason, he says, one is not allowed to pray for an open miracle because since he is not deserving of the miracle, some of his Zechuyos will have to be taken from him. It also follows, he says, that since the person was not deserving of the miracle he is not allowed to derive benefit from the miracle. It is, in essence, similar to stealing or perhaps Me'ilah. This could explain why Rebbi Yosi d'Min Yukras was so upset about what his son did.

In Tzidkas ha'Tzadik (84) he tells us that sometimes a Tzadik is punished because of his rightousness. He gives as an example the case of Kayin who killed his brother Hevel because Hevel brought a pleasing Korban to Hashem. Hevel, ironically, was punished by Hashem for being a Mazik to his brother by causing Kayin to sin thereby bringing punishment upon himself. Of course, says Rav Tzadok, it can't be that the Tzadik is completely blameless. He might, for example, harbor deep in his heart - so deep, that he might not be conscious of it - a bit of satisfaction at being more righteous than his fellow man. For this reason we say in the Tefilah before Keri'as Shema Al ha'Mita: "v'Lo Ye'anesh Shum Adam b'Sibasi". This explains why Rebbi Yosi d'Min Yukras was upset about his daughter being a Michshol for men - albeit too Makpid (see Maharsha) - and how it was possible for her to die as a result of that (see the Girsa of the Bach here that says that she, in fact, died).

Kol Tuv,

Yonasan Sigler

The Kollel adds:

1) Regarding the Agadah about Rebbi Yosi ben Rebbi Avin, who left Rebbi Yosi of Yukras on account of the latter's extremely stringent behavior, what appears to be bothering you is how Rebbi Yosi of Yukras could be so hyper-insensitive and so cruel to his own son and daughter, to such an extent that he caused their early demise.

(Briefly, the two stories are as follows. When Rebbi Yosi was delayed from bringing food to his workers, his son "asked" a fig tree to produce figs for them. When his father arrived, after having been delayed due to the performance of an important Mitzvah, he was upset. He said to his son, "Just as you caused the tree to give fruit before its time, so too you will die before your time." In the incident involving his daughter, Rebbi Yosi of Yukras caught someone parting the hedge around his property in order to rest his eyes on Rebbi Yosi of Yukras' beautiful daughter. Rebbi Yosi of Yukras pronounced that his daughter should die lest she eventually cause others to sin due to her unusual beauty.)

(a) In order to have a clearer understanding of any Sugya, one must not jump to conclusions but must first examine it from different angles. In this case we may ask that if our initial assumption was correct, how could Rebbi Yosi ben Rebbi Avin have reported such blatant Lashon ha'Ra about Rebbi Yosi of Yukras. We are forced to conclude that there was no Lashon ha'Ra involved, and this can only be because he was not reporting anything pejorative about his previous teacher. He was simply pointing out that he could not himself cope with such high standards of strictness. This is what Rebbi Yosi ben Rebbi Avin meant when he said that if my teacher has no pity on his own children, how can I expect him to have any pity on me; Rebbi Yosi ben Rebbi Avin could not himself adhere to such an elevated level of holiness.

Rebbi Yosi of Yukras obviously held that one should under no circumstances request personal benefit through miracles interfering with the natural order of events and that it was exceedingly dangerous to do so. Our text and that of Ein Yakov states that he said that you have troubled Hashem to produce fig fruit prematurely, therefore "Ye'asef she'Lo bi'Zemano." It does not says "Te'asef" as one would have expected. "Ye'asef" implies not that "you" will die prematurely, but rather that it is natural for anyone who behaves in this fashion to do so. (An example of this can be found in the story about Rava on 24b.)

To put this into everyday terms, take the example of a child who starts chain smoking. The parent will do all in his power to prevent this as it is dangerous. It is quite conceivable that the parent would say to their child that one who smokes like a chimney will most likely come to a premature end. (Even according to those texts which have "Te'asef" (see Dikdukei Sofrim s.1), meaning "*You* will expire," it is quite conceivable for a parent to say "If you continue in that fashion, you are likely to suffer the natural consequences.")

(b) In the case of his daughter, Rebbi Yosi seems to have had a different intention when he said, "My daughter, you are causing distress to people, return to your dust and let others not sin on your account" (and according to the text of the Bach, this is indeed what happened).

Beauty alone is no reason for a person to be sent from this world. Maharsha points out that Avraham did not in any way criticize or punish Sarah, notwithstanding the fact that her beauty landed her in trouble with Pharaoh and Avimelech.

The commentaries, however, explain that Rebbi Yosi's daughter was not on the elevated level of the Matriarchs. In the case of Rivkah, the Pasuk says (Bereishis 24:16, according to Rav Sa'adyah Ga'on's rendering) "She was exceptionally beautiful yet no man was familiar with her [because of her modesty]." It had become clear to Rebbi Yosi that his daughter had attracted a great many admirers. In his view, she was in some way responsible for this, as she had either shown off her beauty or, at the very least, not protected herself from the admiring gazes of others as did the Matriarchs (Rivkah, as just mentioned; Sarah's beauty only came to light as a result of customs inspections and the interference of highly immoral gentiles. The matriarchs were unquestionably beyond criticism).

Rebbi Yosi therefore felt that his daughter, failing in her duty of Tzni'us, was snaring too many onlookers. From his stand point of absolute holiness and strictness in Avodas Hashem, he felt that his daughter would be better off by her absence. "Let her leave this world while still innocent," he thought, "lest she cause others to sin in a more serious manner, and then she will be punished for causing them to sin."

Although this may seem surprising to lesser mortals like Rebbi Yosi ben Rebbi Avin, and Kal v'Chomer ourselves, Hashem Himself exercises the very same logic at times. (The Gemara is Chagigah 5a refers to it as "Hen bi'Kedoshav Lo Ya'amin," see Rashi there DH Hainu.)

2) As to the Ta'amei ha'Mikra, you are referred to Rav Mordechai Breuer's comprehensive work Ta'amei ha'Mikra, to that of Rabbi J. Weinfeld (Eshkol, Jerusalem 2nd ed. 5741) and to the entry in Encyclopedia Otzar Yisrael E. Teomim (all these are in Hebrew).

I wrote an issue on the subject in HaMeir in English (Vol. 10 no. 30) Matos/Masei 5751 (Issue no. 337) and, as it deals directly with the question posed here, I am attaching a full copy herewith.

Kol Tuv,

Joseph Pearlman