More Discussions for this daf
1. Suicidal prayer 2. Choni the "Me'agel" 3. Choni ha'Me'agel
4. Shimon Ben Shetach and Choni ha'Ma'agal 5. How does the Gemara know the story if it was kept secret 6. Choni Ha'Ma'agal
7. בימי שמעון בן שטח ירדו גשמים 8. אישתטח על קברא דאבוה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - TA'ANIS 23

Ira Slotnick asked:

(a) I found the varying versions of these stories
interesting. One mentions the "Even Hatoain", one
doesn't, also the Pasuk from where we drive "Ain
Mispallim Al Rov Tova"etc.

(b) Do we know who Choni was or was to represent, other
than the highest degree of Tzadik, so much so that he
was treated as a son to HakB"H.

(c) Can we derive from these stories that even Moshe
Rabeinu was not as beloved to HakB"H as Choni?

(d) Also could you explain the Pasuk in Mishlei quoted
"Yismach Avicha Vimecha Vsagel B'yaldosecha". Mtydias
David talks about the one who puts (the) Chocma in the
heart of the child. What chochma? What does this have
to do with having "Ga'aguim" toward a child?

The Kollel replies:

(a) On Daf 19a, the Mishnah records the story in short, as the style of the Mishnah in all places is to be short and concise, especially when relating stories. The Beraisa on Daf 23a relates the story in all of its relevant details. The "Even ha'To'ein" seems to be the "Keren Ofel" mentioned by the Gemara on 22b, which was also in Yerushalayim as the Yerushalmi says (today it is still called the "Ofel").

The principle of "Ein Mispalelim Al Rov Tovah" is derived from the verse of "Ad Bli Dai," as brought by the Gemara on 22b. The Mishnah, though, in its terse style left this out, as well as the rest of the story (that he brought a Par Hoda'ah and prayed for the rain to stop), since it is not relevant to the point that the Mishnah is teaching.

(b) It may be assumed that the exemplary traits of Choni's grandchildren , as described in the gemara afterwards, were derived from their grandfather Choni. If so, Choni was exemplary in his love for his fellow man and in showing caring and mercy for his fellow man. It was in the merit of those attributes that Hash-m answered his Tefilos and had mercy on His people. (This is also alluded to in his name, "Choni," which comes from the word "Chen" (graciousness).)

(c) Moshe Rabeinu is also described as being like a "Ben Beiso" of Hash-m, as Rashi says at the end of Parshas Beha'aloscha (Bamidbar 12:7). We find throughout Moshe's mission as the leader of the people that he spoke quite frankly with Hash-m and made demands that only a most beloved prophet could make. The Gemara (Berachos 32a) actually mentions Moshe Rabeinu as one of the few people who "spoke sharply" ("Hiti'ach Devarim") to Hash-m.

(d) The verse is perhaps applied here in the sense that "Avicha" refers to Hash-m, and "Imecha" refers to Kneses Yisrael (as in Berachos 36a). It means that both Hash-m and Kneses Yisrael derived pleasure from Choni (see Maharsha and commentaries in Ein Yakov).

M. Kornfeld