More Discussions for this daf
1. What is b'Pharhesiya? 2. Chatzotzros on a Ta'anis 3. An important person prostrating
4. What is a Binyan Shel Simchah? 5. Tefilah 6. An important person prostrating
DAF DISCUSSIONS - TA'ANIS 14

avrohom adler asked:

Has anybody seen the following question?

The Gemara on bottom of 13b says that Ein Bein the second set of Ta'aneisim and the third set except for "Masre'in" and closing the stores. The gemara asks from Teiva and the Gemara says "B'farhesya lo Katoni" we are not dealing with public things.

The Braisoh mentioned closing the shops. Isnt that B'Farhesya - a public thing?

avrohom adler, usa

The Kollel replies:

One has to say that b'Farhesyia has a different meaning here than usual. Even though Gemara Sanhedrin 74b states that "Farhesiya cannot be less than 10", which suggests that if 10 Jews are present this is considered Farhesiya, nevertheless in our Sugya the definition must be different.

This is clear from what RASHI 14a DH MILI writes that "Tzinah" means "Masre'in" in the Beis Knesses and saying the 24 blessings there. There clearly is a Minyan of 10 there but nevertheless this is not Farhesiya.Therefore it seems that Farhesiya in our Sugya means something done out of doors in the main street whilst Tzinah means something done indoors (Beis Knesses and stores).

This can be understood more on the basis of Gemara below 16a.The reason they went out to the street was to despise themselves b'Farhesiya. MEIRI there writes that the intention was that this public disgrace might cause them to be more humble and thereby do a complete Teshuvah. Even though they had already prayed in the Beis Knesses (which is considered Tzinah - see RASHI 16a DH BE-TZINAH), nevetheless the extra shame of being out in the main street might be effective in arousing the people to a higher Teshuvah.

So Farhesiya here means a very public disgrace to make everyone return to Hash-m.

KOL TUV

D. Bloom

Alex Lebovits comments:

Avrohom hello.

1) This question bothered me at first when we learnt the Gem. as well. I refrained from asking it in the shiur thinking that although the store closings are public thing in a way, since they are like a 'shev v'al taaseh' not opening is not called doing something b'farhesyia just as closing the bathhouses which was done in the set of 3 days before isn't considered b'farhesiya; because in the first set of 3 there is no befarhesyia needed, yet the bath houses were still closed. I know that its not as good as seeing the question; but does the answer help explain it?

2) I'd like to add the following from a book called "Read and Remember" by Yirmiyahu Cohen

On page 309 re: Kesubos 4a, he brings the following story.

Rabbeinu Tam used to get the third aliyah every Shabbos. When he was a mourner

during the first seven days, the gabbai didn't call him up, because a mourner is not supposed

to get an aliyah. But he went up anyway. He explained that since he always got this aliyah,

if anyone saw him not getting it this week they would realize that it was because of his mourning

that he didn't get it, and this would constitute a public display of mourning on Shabbos.

So we see from here that even not getting an aliyah is still called b'farhesyia, and it seems what I wrote before is wrong.

Could you comment?

Kol Tuv,

Alex Lebovits

The Kollel replies:

Dear Alex,

I agree with your conclusion that when the Gemara distinguishes between "Tzinah" and "Farhesiya" this is not merely another way of distinguishing between a passive or a positive action.

I would like to suggest another proof that "Shev v'al Ta'aseh" may also in principle be considered as Farhesiya. The proof is from Pesachim 51b. The Halachah there is that if someone from place A - where the custom on the morning of 14th Nisan is not to do work - then goes to place B where the custom is to do work, the visitor is not obligated to do work like his hosts. Rava explained that the reason is because even in B there are some lazy people in the marketplace who even there do not work. Consequently not working in B is not considered as violating the local custom b'Farhesiya.

One can infer from the above that if theoretically it was noticeable in B that a visitor was not working, then he would be obligated to work. So even though not working is Shev v'Al Ta'aseh, one learns from this that it would be considered b'Farhesiya. This teams up with the proof from R. Tam that you mentioned (which is in fact cited in Shulchan Aruch YD 400:1), that not going up to Kri'as ha'Torah can also be considered as Farhesiya.

So I think we have to resort back to my original suggestion (which is in fact also written in the Hebrew Artscrolls on Taanis - that Tzinah in our Gemara refers to something done within the walls of a building) that Farhesiya in the context of our Gemara means something done outdoors with a deliberate display in order to ashame the community, while Tzinah means something done indoors, and our Gemara is not similar to Sanhedrin 74b - which states that Farhesiya is something done in front of 10 Jews. However I think the "Chiluk" between active and passive is "Choser Min ha'Sefer".

KOL TUV

D. Bloom