Dear Rabbi:
I have a question about Havdalah and Women.
I understand that there is a position then men when they recite Mariv on Motsay Shabbat should make a point to leave Minyan before Havdalah so that they can recite Havdalah for their wife. The reason being is that there is some problem with doing it for your wife once you have heard it youself because you are already Yotsay. So when you do it for her you do not really need to do it since you're are yotsay and she does not really have to hear it because she is not obligated. What's more she can not really do it for herself because she is not obligated. Can you verify what I just wrote and give all of the sources including specific citations. Also could you explain what is the problem of women reciting Havdalah for themselves or other women and why it is different from Lulav or Sukah.
Shalom
David Kalb
Dear David
Thanks for your questions and analysis of the issue. There are three major issues which must be clarified.
1) Are women obligated to make Havdalah?
2) If the answer to question #1 is negative, can the woman choose to make Havdalah nonetheless, just as does in the case of Lulav and Sukah?
3) Assuming the answer to question #2 is affirmative can a man opt to make Havdalah for a woman after he was already Yotzei Havdalah earlier?
1) The Shulchan Oruch (OC 296:8) states that women are obligated to make Havdalah just as they are obligated to make Kiddush, but some opinions differ. The Rema states that therefore women should not make Havdalah themselves, but rather hear it from a man.
2) Mishnah Berurah (35) quotes the Bach who permits women to make their own Havdalah just as they may recite a Brachah for Shofar and Lulav.
3) If a man was already Yotzei Havdalah he may not make it specifically for a woman, since according to one opinion, woman are not obligated to make Havdalah, (see Rema 589:6 who forbids a man making the Brachah for Shofar, when blowing specifically for women).
It is also important to point out that the custom is for women not to drink from the Kos of Havdalah (MB ibid:5)
If we sum it all up, the best thing is to follow the ruling of the Rema and have the women being Yotzei by hearing it from a man. This avoids all complications. If this is impossible, the woman should make Havdalah herself, since the Shulchan Aruch sides with the opinion that a woman is indeed obligated to make Havdalah. (In this case she may and is required to drink from the Kos a proper amount.)
A man who already was Yotzei Havdalah may not make Havdalah specifically for a woman.
Therefore, the custom you mentioned, having in mind not to be Yotzei with Havdalah done in the Shul, is indeed the correct practice if there are women back home.
All the best
Y. Landy
Rebbe,
A man says Ata Chonantanu in Maariv of Motzei Shabbos. By doing so he has effectively made a havdala and is allowed to work, drive home from shul etc. Making havdala on a kos with ner and besamim doesn't change that so his leaving shul early to skip hearing havdala shouldn't affect the situation at all. (It seems a little funny to leave shul early anyway.)
If a man already heard kiddush or the megilla or something else that he's chayav to mmake or hear he can still be motzei someone else even though he was already yotzei.
Why would a woman's chiyuv to be mavdeel between kodesh and chol be different from a man's chiyuv according to those poskim who make the distinction? Her chiyuv to hear kiddush or make it herself if no man is there seems to be the same.
Sam Kosofsky
Shalom.
First, I'm not recommending leaving Shul early. One can remain and hear Havdalah, but have in mind not to be Yotzei.
There is an obligation to say Havdalah in Davening and also to say it over a Kos. So even though a man says Ata Chonantanu, he still has an obligation to say Havdalah over a Kos.
The point you raise about a man saying Kiddush or Megillah for a woman is a valid point. Keep in mind however, that in these cases a woman has an obligation to say Kiddush or Megillah just as a man has. Thus a man can repeat Kiddush or Megillah for a woman although he heard it already, just as he can do so for a man. Havdalah though, is different, since according to some poskim a woman is not obligated to say Havdalah. Although she may choose to say Havdalah nonetheless, a man cannot say Havdalah specifically for a woman, just as the case with Shofar (see earlier response).
Kol tuv
Yehuda Landy
Dear Rav Landy:
Thanks for your reply. Your point out that the Shulchan Oruch (OC 296:8) states that women are obligated to make Havdalah just as they are obligated to make Kiddush, but some opinions differ. Can you e-mail me the opinions that differ including the exact sources.
I agree with you and Sam Kosofsky that it is improper to leave Mariv early so as not to hear Havdalah.
However, in the class I attended, I am sure that the Rav actually said this was the preference.
Can this be true? Is there such a source for this?
Can someone not be Yotsay Havdalah simply by having in mind not to, even if they are in fact present, and seeing and hearing what is going on.
Please respond including all sources,
Shalom.
David Kalb
Shalom again
Regarding the explanation behind the two opinions, please see Mishnah Berurah 296:34.
I am not a substitute for your Rabbi. If he feels that leaving early is the best method, he has his proper reasons. I just mentioned that in the event that you feel awkward leaving Shul early, there is another method which is also commonly utilized. I'm sure you can discuss this issue with him.
The key to being Yotsay is the intention (Kavanah). The Mishnah (Rosh HaShanah 27b) states that when two people hear Shofar, one will fulfill his obligation while the other will not, all depending on their intentions.
Kol tuv
Yehuda Landy
Although I don't have it with me, Rav Y. D. Soloveichek Z"L, in his sefer Shiurim Lzecher Avi Mori, gave a long shiur on the difference between Atah Chonantanu and Havdalah al Hokos. His differentiation was that the former is heter melocha while the latter is a heter achila. This doesn't begin to do his shiur justice.....
Frank Breslau