More Discussions for this daf
1. Freeing one's self 2. Afflictions of Love 3. Tenth son
4. Davening 5. Aba Shaul was upset for only two things in his life 6. Keri'at Shema Al ha'Mitah
7. Exemptions to the Bedtime Shema 8. Yisurim Shel Ahavah 9. The tooth borne by Rebbi Yochanan
10. Reference Gemara 11. Forced to sell 12. Al Tikrei
13. correction Afflictions of Love 14. Loss of Children 15. Olam HaBa
16. TALMID CHOCHUM 17. Rav Yochanan and the bone of his tenth son
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 5

Elisha Yagudayev asks:

1) I am trying to get a clear understanding on what exactly Yesurim Shel Ahavah are according to Rashi. On 5a DH Yesurim Shel Ahavah,he states that they are brought upon a person just to increase his merit, and not on account of any sin. But on 5b DH d'Havu Le'hu Banim u'Meisu, he states that the child dying is Yesurim Shel Ahavah since the mourning will atone for the father's sin, which implies that Yesurim Shel Ahavah are brought on account of one's sins!

2) Additionally, when the gemara says that children dying in the father's lifetime are Yesurim Shel Ahavah as proven from R' Yochanan, does that mean that it is always Yesurim Shel Ahavah. This can't be for we find earlier in the gemara, it brings down that the death of one's children atones for one's sins as learned out from the gezera shava using the word Avon. Again, this is a question on the first Rashi which states that Yesurim Shel Ahavah are not on account of one's sins. I was thinking that we must therefore say that when the gemara states that the death of one's children are Yesurim Shel Ahavah, it means to teach that it CAN be in the category of Yesurim Shel Ahavah, but it can also be on account of the father's sins. But this wouldn't really fit in with the gemaras proof from R' yochanan, especially according to tosafos' Peshat that we know they are Yesurim Shel Ahavah since he used to comfort mourners with this bone. If we were to say that the death of one's children are not always Yesurim Shel Ahavah, how could R Yochanan comfort them, for perhaps their son died due to their sin? So I'm not sure what to answer for this.

3) The gemara (5b) gives many stories in which Rabbis didn't want the Yesurim they were receiving (not them and not their reward) so another rabbi healed them. Assuming they were receiving Yesurim Shel Ahavah (as Rashi explains, this is the only type of Rashi great rabbis recieve), why would they not want them and their reward? Even though the Maharsha explains that it was causing bitul torah, R yochanan himself said that Yesurim are Yesurim Shel Ahavah even if it causes bitul torah. Even though above we said that Hash-m only gives these Yesurim to those who accept them, why didn't they accept them? Don't they know that these are Yesurim Shel Ahavah from Hash-m, Who knows best for them, and Is only trying to increase their merit for the next world, which is the ultimate purpose of this world. Why ask for these Yesurim to be taken away, and disdain them in such a harsh way (neither them nor their reward)?

Thank you Rav

Elisha Yagudayev, Flushing, United States

The Kollel replies:

Your question regarding Rashi's view on Yisurim Shel Ahavah is raised by quite a few Acharonim. These are the answers I found so far:

1) The first Rashi which says that Yisurim Shel Ahavah are without a sin means without an intentional Aveirah ("Avon" usually means intentional Aveirah) but there were unintentional sins (Shogeg) and these require atonement. (Magid Ta'alumah)

2) Alternatively, it is possible to say that the Aveilus atones for his sins and then he has Yisurim Shel Ahavah from the fact that he does not have children anymore. (HaKoseiv in Iyun Yaakov, Aderes -Rabbi Eliyahu David Teumim)

As for your second question, it is effectively a question on the Gemara which implies in one place that children die due to sins and in another that it is Yisurim Shel Ahavah. There are many Gemaros where it is explicitly stated or implied that children can die for their parents' sins. Nevertheless, as you stated, there may be instances where it is Yisurim Shel Ahavah. Rebbi Yochanan wanted to encourage the bereaved parents not to presume that it was their fault that their child died but rather that it could be a special merit from Hash-m that they received a soul for a short period and suffered from its loss just as he had.

The third question you raised is also on Rebbi Yochanan himself who said that he did not want Yisurim or their reward, even though they are Yisurim Shel Ahavah. It would appear that Rebbi Yochanan knew that the Yisurim were not due to a sin but rather to give him reward, but since they caused him Bitul Torah (and it says it Berachos that he never went four Amos without Torah) he preferred to get his reward from Torah study.

Yoel Domb