More Discussions for this daf
1. Birkas v'Lamalshinim 2. Yehudah Ger Amoni 3. R. Gamliel and R. Elazar ben Azaryah
4. Bribes (Shochad) 5. Know before Whom you stand 6. Sancheriv
7. Shmuel ha'Katan 8. Raban Gamliel being reinstated as Nasi 9. May the Living Lie about the Dead?
10. The Right to Depose Raban Gamliel 11. Tocho K'Boro 12. "Nikra Poshe'a"
13. Chizkiyahu 14. Tocho K'Boro 15. Musaf after Seven Hours
16. Rebbi Shimon bar Yochai 17. Shimon bar Yochai 18. Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah taking over the Nesi'us from Raban Gamliel
19. Praying for a friend in order to be answered first 20. Shmuel ha'Katan and Birkas ha'Minim 21. Zav
22. Which prayers require standing 23. R. Gamliel and R. Elazar ben Azaryah
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 28

Steve Feuerstein asked:

(1) What is the significance that the question posed to both rabbanim
Gamliel and Yehoshua regarding whether or not maariv is an obligation, was
presented by none other than Shimon bar Yochai?

(2) And why did the gemara only state at the end of the discussion that it
was in fact Shimon bar Yochai?

Steve Feuerstein, New York, USA

The Kollel replies:

(1) When learning the Gemara, one wonders how the "Talmid" who posed the question to the two Gedolim had the Chutzpa to ask Raban Gamliel for a ruling after already receiving an answer from Rebbi Yehoshua - and even more, how did he have the Chutzpah to retort to the Nasi, "But Rebbi Yehoshua told me it is a Reshus!" And remember, this was after Raban Gamliel twice reprimanded Rebbi Yehoshua for not accepting other rulings of his. One would suspect the Talmid, Chas v'Shalom, of Rechilus and of being Marbeh Machlokes b'Yisrael.

That is why the Gemara tells us that Rebbi Shimon was the Talmid. He was well-known for his attitude that learning Torah is more important than any other preoccupation, even Tefilah. Rebbi Shimon would only say Kri'as Shema, but not Tefilah, when he Davened (Shabbos 12b). He was happy to hear Rebbi Yehoshua rule that Ma'ariv was a Reshus, so that he would not have to be Mevatel Torah for it, and he wanted the ruling to be accepted by all of the elders. That is why he asked Raban Gamliel, the Nasi, for his ratification.

(Tosfos Berachos 26a writes that Reshus does not mean that one does not have to Daven Ma'ariv if he wishes. It only means that Mitzvos which have a limited time to be performed ("Zemanam Over") override it. However, if a person is Toraso Umanuso, and uses every minute of his free time for Torah, then learning Torah also becomes "Zemanah Over," since had the person not occupied himself with Davening Ma'ariv he would have learned more Torah -- something that can never be made up at a later date, since he will be learning at the later date in any case.)

As for the second point, how he retorted that "Rebbi Yehoshua ruled otherwise," the answer is that Rebbi Shimon was also well known for his unwavering quest for truth (which eventually led him to compose the Zohar). As the Gemara in Shabbos 30b says, he was not even afraid of the powerful caeser; he stated the truth for what it is and had no other considerations.

For this reason, nobody can suspect him of speaking out of disrespect for the Nasi. Unafraid, when he favored another opinion (that Ma'ariv is only a Reshus) as he heard it expressed by other Talmidei Chachamim, he spoke up to the Nasi l'Shem Shamayim, to clarify the issue and bring the truth to light.

(2) Whether the actions of Rebbi Shimon were totally l'Shem Shamayim or not becomes apparent only at the end of the story. As Chazal say about a Machlokes l'Shem Shamayim, when something is instigated with pure intentions only good will come from it; if not, then Chas v'Shalom not.

In the story with Raban Gamliel and Rebbi Yehoshua, as the story developed it was not clear to all whether the outcome of their dispute was positive or not. (The Gemara mentions that opposing approaches were voiced as to the benefit or loss caused by the added benches in the Beis Midrash.) Because of the outward appearance of things, one might be tempted to view with disapproval the actions of the Talmid when one reads the beginning of the story -- something that certainly would be inappropriate to think about Rebbi Shimon's actions.

Only at the end, when we see that the Machlokes was Miskayemes (both remained Nesi'im, and the Nesi'us was actually strengthened from the experience in the end), can we know for certain that the intentions of all involved were truly l'Shem Shamayim. That is when the Gemara tells us that the Talmid was Rebbi Shimon. (It was later pointed out to me by a reader that the Ben Yehoyada offers a similar approach to this second question.)

M. Kornfeld

Steve Feuerstein asks:

Dear Rabbi,

My chevrusah asked a follow-up question regarding your response to Berachot 28 that I hope you don't mind me forwarding:

If Shimon bar Yochai only davened the Shema and did not engage in the Amidah, then why was he only concerned with the status of Maariv and whether or not it was a rishut?

Shouldn't his question have applied to Shaharit and Mincha as well?

Warm regards,

Steve Feuerstein

The Kollel replies:

The reason that Rebbi Shimon did not Daven Amidah was not actually related to the question of Reshus or Chovah that the Gemara in Berachos is discussing. His exemption from Davening Amidah was because of Toraso Umanuso, which indeed applies to all of the Tefilos, as you write.

The discussion in Berachos applies to one who is not Toraso Umanuso, and only applies to Ma'ariv. (The question of the Gemara is whether one may forgo Davening Ma'ariv in order to accomplish another Mitzvah that can only be done at this time.) This does not relate directly to Rebbi Shimon's famous practice of not Davening.

However (as my Chaver Reb Dovid Zusman pointed out), Rebbi Shimon only adopted the practice not to Daven later in his life, when he was a known Torah sage and qualified as "Toraso Umanuso." He did not necessarily have such a practice when he was just a Talmid. Nevertheless, even then he certainly aspired to learn Torah all day long and forgo Tefilos. Therefore he was happy to find an "excuse" to forgo at least Ma'ariv in favor of studying the Torah.

M. Kornfeld

P.S. One of the readers pointed out that the Ben Yehoyada provides an answer to the second question (why did the Gemara wait until now to tell us who the Talmid was) along the lines of my answer. -MK