More Discussions for this daf
1. Gezeras Merchatzaos 2. The Rashi of "v'Kodem Gezeirah" 3. The Machlokes Rebbi Yehudah and the Chachamim about Zman Minchah
4. Onah of a Nasi 5. Obligation of Maariv 6. Musaf and Minchah Corresponding to Korbanos
7. Zechus Avos 8. Raban Gamliel and Rebbi Yehoshua 9. The argument between Raban Gamliel and Rebbi Yehoshua
10. The incident between Rebbi Yehoshua and Raban Gamliel 11. Tefillat Ha'Minchah Ad Ha'Arev 12. wine
13. Early Minchah on Shabbos 14. Plag ha'Minchah 15. Tefilas Arvis Reshus
16. Tartei d'Sasrei
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 27

Chaim Harpaz asks:

My 7th grade talmid asked me why mincha should be said before musaf, if mincha corresponds to karbon tamid, and you can't bring the karbon mussaf afterwards?

I saw that the mishna brura says that the reason one can be yotzei mussaf bdieved before davening shacharis, is because this works bdieved by the karbon mussaf if it is brought before the tamid shel shachar.

However, regarding mincha, we are requiring you to daven before mussaf l'chatchila because of tadir. This goes against the rules for karbonos, where it l'choira the tamid always goes after kabon mussaf l'chatchila?

Using the svara of rachami (daf 26a), perhaps we can say that the rules for karbon and tefilla are different. However, rachami does not apply to musaf (Tosfos 26a), only to mincha.

One talmid suggested the following lomdus: that the problem with musaf after tamid is in the tamid, not in the mussaf. Therefore, we can apply the svara of rachami and ignore the rules of karbonos allowing the mussaf to go after the mincha even l'chatchila. As far as the mussaf (which is not rachami)going afterwards, it was never an issue in the mussaf, only in the tamid.

I would appreciate any corrections or hosofos or maare mekomos that you can offer. Thank you.

Chaim

Chaim Harpaz, Norfolk

The Kollel replies:

Reb Chaim, you have a wonderful Pilpul d'Oraisa in your class! I have found several Acharonim who ask the question asked in your Shi'ur. I will relate what they answer, bs'd, but that does not mean that the answers of your Talmidim might not be just as good!

1)

a. The Aruch ha'Shulchan (OC 286:16) asks this question. Since the Tefilos correspond to the Korbanos, how is it possible to daven Minchah before Musaf, since one certainly cannot bring any Korban after the Korban Minchah?

b. The answer of the Aruch ha'Shulchan is based on the Gemara in Zevachim 91a, which states that once the time for davening Minchah has arrived, it is as if both the Korban of Musaf and the Korban of Minchah have already been slaughtered.

c. Since both Korbanos have already been slaughtered, it is obvious that one brings the Minchah before the Musaf because of the rule that "Tadir v'Eino Tadir, Tadir Kodem," the more frequent Korban always comes before the less frequent one. The Aruch ha'Shulchan seems to understand that the rule of "Tadir v'Eino Tadir, Tadir Kodem" is stronger than the rule that one cannot slaughter any Korban after the Korban Minchah.

d. According to this, there is no basic difference between the laws of Korbanos and the laws of Tefilah, but when the time for davening arrives, this does not mean merely theoretically that it is the time for the Korban, but rather we consider that the appopriate Korban has actually been slaughtered and is ready to be brought on the Mizbe'ech.

2) The Chazon Ish (Kodashim, Menachos 33:7) gives another solution based on a different source.

a. The Chazon Ish cites Tosfos in Rosh Hashanah (30b, DH v'Niskalkelu) who concludes that after the Korban Tamid, it is possible to bring the Korban Musaf. This is because there are two positive commandments involved in bringing respectively the Korban Tamid and the Korban Musaf. The positive Mitzvah of bringing the Tamid is that of "Hashlamah" -- there is a Mitzvah that the Tamid should be the last Korban of the day. However, there is a different positive Mitzvah involved with bringing the Korban Musaf -- this is a "Mitzvah d'Rabim," a public Mitzvah to bring the Korban Musaf. We know from Gitin 38b that a Mitzvah d'Rabim possesses more power than other Mitzvos. Therefore, one may defer a positive Mitzvah in order to fulfil the public Mitzvah of davening with a Minyan. Similarly, Tosfos writes that the Mitzvah that the Korban Tamid should be the last of the day can be deferred so that one can perform the public Mitzvah of bringing the Musaf.

b. The Chazon Ish writes that since the Halachos of Korbanos correspond to the Halachos of davening, it follows that one may also daven Musaf after Minchah.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom