More Discussions for this daf
1. Tefilas Hashlamah 2. Ma'ariv after Plag Ha'Minchah on Erev Shabbos 3. Building Bathrooms Like the Persians
4. Time for Praying Shacharis 5. Keri'as Shema before Plag ha'Minchah 6. Origin Of Davening As We Know It
7. Shachar 8. Starting times of Tefilot 9. Mei Raglayim
10. Rebbi Yehudah and Plag ha'Minchah 11. Rebbi Yehudah and Plag ha'Minchah 12. Tashlumin
13. Minchah 14. korbonos 15. Musaf until 7 hours according to Rabbi Yehudah
16. Korbanos 17. Rebbi Yehudah's opinion about Shacharis 18. Tosfos DH Tefilas ha'Shachar
19. דרכו של רש״י בתחילת פרק 20. ש"ץ שטעה ביום תענית 21. מחלוקת רבנן ור' יהודה בזמן תפילת מוסף
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 26

David Goldman asks:

1. How was it possible that Jews and scholars believed they were yotsi davvening maariv and saying shma even before plag mincha, and even the Trumas Hadeshen approved of it, when it is untrue, even in the time of the geonim?!

He cites many generations, including Rav Hai Gaon where the communities prayed very early, at a time when the rabbis felt it was not yet the proper time for prayer, and the rabbis did not make the people stop. Terumat Hadeshen concludes:

Nireh d'Afiliu Talmid Chacham, I Hu b'Tzibur she'Makdimin l'Hispalel v'li'Kro Es Shema b'Yamim Aruchim, Im Ein Yachol l'Hafrisham Ein Tzarich l'Hafrish me'Hem, Ele Mispalel v'Korei Imahem v'Yotzei ba'Zeh.

"It seems that even a rabbinic scholar, if he is with the community, that prays and recites the Shema early in the long days of summer, if he cannot separate himself from the community, he does not need to separate from them, rather he prays with them and recites the Shema with them, and he has fulfilled his obligation."

2. I just thought of a kav zechus for Trumas Hadeshen regarding zman shechiva.........

Let's say in some places in Europe tseys hakochavim (not 72 minutes, just regular) in the summer is after 11 pm.

So plag mincha is at 9:15. 2.5 hours before that would be 6:45.

Now if there are people who in other times of the year go to bed around that time anyway, maybe they would also go to bed in the summer at the same time, i.e. 6:45, (the Rosh argues that R. Yehuda considers that some people go to bed before night).

If that is the case, then it might be argued that zman shechiva is not always davka related to actual night, and the minyan or individual could conceivably be going to bed when it is still light outside as a regular social practice...........

Thus the leniency where people would be yotsi 3-4 hours before tseys.

David Goldman, USA

The Kollel replies:

1. Tosfos (Berachos 2b, DH Amar) writes that Rebbi Yehudah does not derive from "when you lie down" that Shema must be said at the time of sleeping. The Mitzpeh Eisan (printed in the back of the standard edition of the Gemara) writes that Rebbi Yehudah was a student of Rebbi Tarfon, as the Gemara in Nedarim (49b) tells us. The Mishnah in Berachos (10b) tells us that Rebbi Tarfon derives from "when you lie down" that Shema at night must be said lying down, but one is not required to say it at the time of lying down. Rebbi Yehudah therefore follows his teacher, Rebbi Tarfon, on this point. The Chidushei ha'Rashba (Berachos 2a, end of DH ul'Inyan) also writes that according to Rebbi Yehudah it is not necessary to daven Ma'ariv at night. One may say Ma'ariv even if the sun is still shining. The Terumas ha'Deshen cites Tosfos (Berachos 2a, DH Me'eimasai) that in Tefilah, one may adopt two leniencies which contradict each other.

2. David, you seem to be saying that it all depends on when some people go to bed. However, Rashi writes on the verse "uv'Shochbecha" (Devarim 6:7) that "perhaps even if he lies down halfway through the day" he should say Shema?" Rashi answers that the Torah is speaking about the normal time at which people lie down.

We learn from Rashi that if people go to sleep in the middle of the day, this does not make it a time to say Shema. So if it gets dark at 11:00pm, is 6:45pm not considered the middle of the day?

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom