More Discussions for this daf
1. Getting things through prayer 2. Dovid Hamelech and the Harp 3. The speed of the angels
4. Chamor No'er 5. Shema after Tefilla 6. Bedai
7. Moshe and Pharaoh's astrologers 8. Ge'ulah Samuch la'Tefilah 9. Eliyahu in 4 Flights; Rav Elazar bar Avina
10. The Logic of Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi 11. Rashi 12. Bushah & Kelimah
13. Verse proving David was not embarrassed 14. Ashrei 15. Rashi
16. Saying Shema before Shemoneh Esreh 17. Lulei 18. "Lulei"
19. Unneccessary repetition 20. Semichat Ge'ulah l'Tefilah 21. Interpretation of "BeShachbecha"
22. בחצות הלילה 23. King David dealing with Halachic issues
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BERACHOS 4

dear rav mordecai:

hi. this is "off the daf" but I thought you may have a he'arah into this. I would like to know the diff (if any) between bushah and klimah, not first hand hand, of course. :)

we say it in bircas hachodesh. I have an insight into chaim she'yesh bahem osher ve'chavod..... If we only asked for (and got) osher. what then ? Our pockets would be lined with money and that's it. asking for osher ve'choved is for our own toeles, because we would get kavod by being mefazer our money on charitable causes. I believe I heard this somewhere. cant recall from who, but it makes good sense.

thanks

yerachmiel

The Kollel replies:

As a matter of fact, you're question happens to be on the Daf, after all. On Berachos 4a we discussed your question in the Insights. Here's a copy, hope you find it helpful!

-Mordecai

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Berachos 4

1) MEFIBOSHES SHAMED DAVID; KIL'AV DISGRACED MEFIBOSHES

QUESTION: The Gemara relates that David conferred with his Rebbi, Mefiboshes, after every Halachic ruling. This is why his Rebbi was called "Mefiboshes," because he would shame ("Mevayesh") King David in Halachah by correcting him. In reward for his humility, David merited to have a son who disgraced Mefiboshes in Halachah. This son was called "Kil'av," because he disgraced ("Machlim") the father ("Av") of Halachic ruling, Mefiboshes.

Why is the word "shame" ("Bushah/Mevayesh") used with reference to Mefiboshes and David, and the word "disgrace" ("Kelimah/Machlim") is used with reference to Kil'av and Mefiboshes?

ANSWER: The VILNA GA'ON, MALBIM, and others point out that "Bushah" is the shame that one causes to himself, through his own words or actions. "Kelimah" is the disgrace that others cause a person to experience. They base this on a number of verses. For example, the verse in Yechezkel (16:63) says, "In order that you remember and be ashamed (va'Vosh't), and never open your mouth any more because of your disgrace (Kelimasech)." The verse in Yirmeyah (3:25) says, "Let us lie down in our shame (bi'Vashteinu) and let our disgrace (Kelimaseinu) cover us (i.e. from the outside), because we have sinned against Hash-m our G-d...."

David caused himself to be shamed by going, on his own initiative, to Mefiboshes for his Halachic rulings to be scrutinized. Therefore, the Gemara uses the word "Mevayesh," and hence the name "Mefiboshes." Kil'av, though, used to correct Mefiboshes because he heard that Mefiboshes made a mistake. Mefiboshes did not ask to be corrected. Hence, the word "Machlim" is used, and David's son was called "Kil'av."