Shalom,
I have a few questions in perek Eizehu Mekoman.
1. I understood that the reason for a side ramp on the west of the main kevesh was to save time getting the shirayim to the yesod, before the blood coagulates. However, in some pictures, such as the one included in the korbanot sefer I received from you, that ramp only connects the kevesh to the yesod, not the sovev. That leaves the kohein who did a chatat at a dead end, forcing him to encircle the entire altar in order to get down. Other drawings I have seen show the side ramp starting at the sovev, which seems much more sensible. Comments?
2. As I understood the braita of the construction of the mizbeach, the "cement" used to hold everything together was based on tar and lead. Wouldn't this material melt or burn under the fire of the maaracha?
3. The gemara explains Rav's opinion regarding the yesod, that it simply did not exist in those places where it was not applicable, by saying that "fillers" were put in the mold used, before pouring in the "concrete". As proof of this, it also quotes Rav Kahana's halacha that the karnot were hollow. I found it strange that no mention was made, by the braita itself or the gemara, that in all of the stages fillers were needed to preserve a continuos pipeline to the shitim, for the nesachim.
Comments?
Thank you,
Shimon Lebowitz
2) This is a major and very important question which is discussed at length by Chazal and the Mefarshim.
a) Tiferet Yisrael, in his introduction to chapter 3 of Masechet Midot, writes that possibly this can only be explained by saying that a special miracle occured so that the lead and tar did not melt. He writes that Shiltei Giborim #27 writes something similar; that there was a bigger miracle with the outer Mizbeach than with the inner gold Mizbeach. On the outer Mizbeach there were always 3 large bonfires burning continuosly and the Cohanim were constantly raking the ashes day and night. How was the Mizbeach never disqualified by losing its exact square shape amongst all this heat and scraping?! One has to say that this was a miracle.
b) In fact this miracle is mentioned in the Gemara at the very end of Masechet Chagigah. Reish Lakish pointed out that the golden Mizbeach possessed only a thin layer of gold plating; no more than a dinar thick; but for many years the fire of the Mizbeach did not erode it. Tosafot there (paragraph beginning "She-Ain") cites Midrash Tanchuma (end of Parshat Terumah) that Moshe Rabeinu was amazed about this; how is it possible that the fire did not burn the wood of the Mizbeach?! Hash-m explained to Moshe Rabeinu that there is a difference between the fire that comes down from Heaven and ordinary fire. The fire from Shamayim does not destroy things. We see this from the fact that Moshe saw the burning bush, but the Sneh was not eaten up by the fire.
c) However, there is a major Rishon, the "Ra'aviah", who understands the Gemara in Chagigah differently, and according to him there may be a natural explanation for what happened. This is in Ra'aviah #408 at the end of Chagigah. Firstly he points out that the Gemara there only mentions the miracle of the golden Mizbeach, but not the outer copper Mizbeach, even though the fire on the latter was much bigger. Ra'aviah writes that the difference is that the outer Mizbeach did not have a roof. This is stated by Rashi on Shemot 30:3 where the Torah tells us that the inner Mizbeach had a roof. Rashi writes that we can infer from this that the outer Mizbeach did not possess a roof. Because it was open to the sky, the heat of the bonfire was able to spread out and be dispersed. This is why the Mizbeach did not burn up.
There is a lot more to write on this topic but I will close here for the moment.
Answer to question 3)
It seems that the Gemara does not mention the "fillers" needed for the pipeline to the shittim, for the simple technical reason that these fillers would be required not only for Halachic reasons; but also simply because it would not be physically possible to drill this pipeline in the Mizbeach after the stones were complete. Rashi Sukah top 48b DH k'Min writes that there was a hole in the Mizbeach through which the water and wine went down to the shittin. They did not have electric drills in those days, so it would not be possible to drill a pipeline through solid stone. Therefore it was obvious that one would have to take a stick of wood and place it inside what would later become the Mizbeach, and then pour in the "concrete".
Comments on question 1)
a) The issue of the side ramp on the west of the main ramp is in fact a dispute between Rashi and Tosafot. Rashi 64a DH Tzavar cites the Mishnah Sukah 48a, describing the Cohen who brought the liquid offerings:- "He went up the ramp and turned to his left". Rashi learns from the fact that the Mishnah does not state "and turned to the sovev", that in fact on the west side of the main kevesh it was not possible to turn to the sovev, because there was no small ramp on the west side, so instead he had to go up to the top of the Mizbeach, and from there would make a left.
b) Tosafot 64a, paragraph beginning "Yoter", asks your question, Shimon; that according to Rashi when he sprinkled the blood of the chatat on the SW keren, he would have to go back in reverse?! For this reason Tosafot disagrees with Rashi, and maintains that in fact there was a small ramp on the west side as well.
I have not yet seen an explanation of Rashi's shittah.
Chodesh Tov
Dovid Bloom
Rebbe,
It seems that fire that comes from shamayim sometimes destroys as it did to Nada and Avihu and to the 250 makrivei haketoret in Korach's rebellion.
B'kavod,
Sam Kosofsky
1) That was a special fire. Bamidbar 11:1 tells us that the Bnei Yisrael complained, looked for an excuse and spoke badly against Hashem. Hashem heard this and the fire of Hashem burnt amongst them. The people cried out to Moshe Rabeinu; Moshe prayed to Hashem, and the fire sunk into the ground.
2) Yalkut Shimoni there tells us that Hashem had heard that they spoke Lashon Harah against His honor. Hashem's honor is fire which devours fire [see Yoma 21b-DB] so he sent fire amongst them. Rabbi Yehuda said that the fire that sank into the ground did not return to its place in Heaven, but entered the Ohel Moed. That fire went out and ate up all the sacrifices that Bnei Yisrael offered in the wilderness.
3) The Midrash continues to relate that it was that very same fire that ate up the congregation of Korach, and it was the same fire that also ate up Nadav and Avihu. No person leaves this world before that fire passes over him.
4) This is a fire of anger, whilst Tosfos Chagigah 27a DH She-Ein refers to a fire of love, which is why it did not burn up the Mizbeach for all those hundreds of years.
[ See also Shem miShmuel Parshat Tzav Year 5671 DH b'Zoh"k]
Shavua Tov
Dovid Bloom
Rav Dovid, Shlita,
You wrote-
>>c) However, there is one major Rishon, the Ra'avyah, who understands the Gemara in Chagigah differently. According to his understanding, there may be a natural explanation for what happened. The Ra'avyah at the end of Chagigah (#408) first points out that the Gemara there mentions only the miracle of the golden Mizbe'ach but not the outer, copper Mizbe'ach, even though the fire on the latter was much bigger. The Ra'avyah writes that the difference is that the outer Mizbe'ach did not have a roof. This is stated by Rashi to Shemos 30:3, where the Torah tells us that the inner Mizbe'ach had a roof. Rashi writes that we infer from this that the outer Mizbe'ach did not possess a roof. Because it was open to the sky, the heat of the bonfire was able to spread out and be dispersed. This is why the Mizbe'ach did not burn up.<<
I don't understand why the Ra'avyah is comparing the Beis ha'Mikdash to the Mishkan. In the Mishkan, the "roof" of the Golden Mizbe'ach was the wooden plank, covered with gold, upon which the coals were placed, and then the Ketores was placed on the coals. The Copper Mizbe'ach had no "roof" i.e. No wooden plank on top, but rather was filled with earth, upon which the Kohanim walked. Both Mizbechos had air space above them. In the Beis ha'Mikdash the Outer Mizb'each was made from poured "cement" and was entirely different from the portable Copper Mizbe'ach of the Mishkan.
Ya'akov Tavin
1) The truth of the matter is that the Ra'avyah does not discuss the outer Mizbeach in the Beis Hamikdash so explicitly. Most of his discussion relates to the inner and the outer Mizbeach in the Mishkan. However he does write that according to his distinction between the golden Mizbeach and the copper one; that the former possessed a roof and the latter did not; one can answer a question that our Rabbis asked about the copper Mizbeach. They asked that since we have a rule (Pesachim 74a) that if part of a metal bar is hot the whole of the bar is hot, it is difficult to imagine how the Cohanim could walk around the copper Mizbeach without getting their feet scalded and their clothes burned?!
2) Ra'avyah writes:- do not try and tell me that this was a miracle, because if so it should have been mentioned in Pirkei Avos 5:5 amongst the 10 miracles that were done for our fathers in the Beis Hamikdash.
[Ra'avyah adds that it would be forced to try and suggest that this is not mentioned because it is a fixed miracle, in the same way that Gemara Yoma 21b asserts that permanent miracles are not counted].
Ra'avyah continues that according to what he has explained; that the outer Mizbeach did not overheat because it had no roof; we understand why this is not called a miracle.
3) We see from the above that Ra'avyah does extend his discussion also to the outer Mizbeach in the Beis Hamikdash. However there is another problem here, which is really included in what you wrote, Rav Yaakov; namely that the Gemara Shabbos 55a [and Rashi DH Mi and Tosfos DH Mizbeach] states, based on the pesukim, that in the time of Shlomo Hamelech and Yechezkel Hanavi, there was no copper Mizbeach?!
4) It seems to me that whilst the Ra'avyah is chiefly discussing the Mizbechos in the Mishkan he is also hinting that in the Beis Hamikdash it is also difficult to understand how the outer Mizbeach did not burn up. This is in fact the question of the Tiferes Yisrael in his Opening to the 3rd chapter of Maseches Midos; why did the lead and the tar of the Mizbeach not melt when the fire was lit?!
5) With his answer that it was open to the sky, the Ra'avyah suggests a solution to this problem.
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom
PS Rav Yehoshua Kovatch was very excited to hear from you, and warmly reciprocates the regards.
Answer to Question 3:
It seems that the Gemara does not mention the "fillers" needed for the pipeline to the Shitim for the simple, technical reason that these fillers would be required not only for Halachic reasons but also simply because it would not be physically possible to drill this pipeline in the Mizbe'ach after the stones were complete. Rashi in Sukah (beginning of 48b, DH k'Min) writes that there was a hole in the Mizbe'ach through which the water and wine descended to the Shitin. They did not have electric drills in those days, so it would not be possible to drill a pipeline through solid stone. Therefore, it was obvious that one would have to take a stick of wood and place it inside what would later become the Mizbe'ach, and then pour in the "concrete.""
Drilling, even if they had the technology in those days, would not be a viable solution.
The drill bits would presumably have been made of metal.
But according to the Mishnah (Midos 3, 4), iron [and possibly other metals] touching a stone of the Mizbeach, invalidates that stone, and according to the Gr"a the entire Mizbeach.
Consequently, drilling, even if it had been available at the time, would not constitute a solution.
There is a lot more to write on this topic, including many additional interesting details garnered from Shas, but I will close here for the moment
Mordechai Schwimmer
Yes, you have a good point, Mordechai!
However I have just had an idea how to answer the original question; why were "fillers" not mentioned as necessaary in construction of the Shittim?
Maybe we can answer that they used the Shamir to make the Shittim. Tosfos 54b end DH Avanim writes that it was not possible to make the Mizbeach with the Shamir because the Shamir is not capable of making the sides so smooth that one's fingernail will not get stopped when one runs it along the edge. However this latter quality was not required when making the Shittim; so was it possible to make the Shittim with the help of the Shamir?
One or two further points-
1) With regard to the question of whether other metals apart from barzel invalidate the Mizbeach.
I am aware that the Meshech Chochmah, at the end of Parshas Yisro, writes that if the stones were hewed with silver this is also invalid, but aside from the fact that the Ramban there seems only to disqualify with barzel, there is also a strong source from Chazal that only barzel is posul.
This is from Maseches Semachos, end chapter 8, which states "What is the difference between barzel, which is invalid for the Mizbeach, and between all other metals? The difference is that the sword is a sign of curse whilst the Mizbeach is a sign of atonement".
This seems to be an explicit source from Chazal that silver is acceptable to be used on the Mizbeach stones because silver is not used for swords.
2) The Gra that you cited, Mordechai, seems to be against the Rambam (Hilchos Beis Habechirah 2:16) that if barzel touched one of the stones , it is only that stone which is disqualified but all the other stones remain kosher.
Behatzlochah Rabah
Dovid Bloom
1) On second thoughts, it seems that if the Shittin were drilled with a metal other than barzel, this would be kosher even according to the Meshech Chochmah.
2) This is because the very last Meshech Chochmah in Parshas Yisro states that if stones were cut with silver they are disqualified for the Mizbeach, as the verse states (Dvorim 27:6) "you shall build the Mizbeach of Hashem with complete stones".
3) We notice that Meshech Chochmah does not cite the verse prior to this one (Dvorim 27:5) "You shall not raise up barzel on the Mizbeach" to disqulify the silver-cut stones. It seems that MC agrees that the latter verse only outrules barzel, whilst if one cuts with sliver there is a different problem; the stones are not complete, but are broken. The latter problem applies also to stones cut with silver.
4) However this would clearly not be a problem with the Shittin, since the Torah tells us to make holes in the Mizbeach for the Shittin. If so, clearly the stones would not be considered as broken if one drills a hole through them to make the Shittin. Therefore, if the technology would be available, it would be acceptable to drill a hole in the Mizbeach to make the Shittin if a non-barzel drill is used.
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom