The gemara towards the end of the mesechta says that one who eats olives will lose all of his torah knowledge for i believe seventy years, does that apply to the olives we eat today? and should one try to avoid consumption of olives?
yitzi loewy, USA
The RAMBAM in chapter 4 of Hilchos De'os lists many foods we should avoid. He does not mention olives specifically. In fact, he doesn't mention any of the other things in our Beraisa in Horayos, such as the heart of an animal. He does gives a general warning of eating too much fruit from trees (4:11), which would include olives, but he doesn't say it has to with forgetting one's learning.
Other Halachic works do bring down this warning against eating olives (MENORAS HA'MA'OR (249) and the ARUCH HA'SHULCHAN (OC, 2:5)) but don't give us any specific guidelines about it.
The MAGEN AVRAHAM (OC 170, note 19) says that if one has the proper intention (Kavanah) when he eats olives, they not only won't be harmful but they will actually strengthen one's memory. The Magen Avraham does not elaborate on what this proper intention is. The AFARSEKTA D'ANI'A (section 4) says that the Magen Avraham is not referring to the basic intention one should have when eating any food - that this food should give me strength to serve G-d properly - but rather to special Kabalistic thoughts that most people are not privy to.
Finally we should note that the Beraisa says "ha'Ragil be'Zaysim". This implies that the problem is only if one eats them habitually. What is the exact amount that one shouldn't eat? That is very hard to say, but eating them occasionally is probably okay.
Kol Tuv,
Yonasan Sigler
Thanks to (a) and (b) for the references.
To address (c): the verse that praises Eretz Israel for having the seven species (Devarim 8:8), uses the term "Zeis Shemen" for olives. Rashi says this means: olives that make oil. In other words it is the oil that is the praiseworthy element of the olive. And, of course, the Beraisa in Horayos 13 says that olive oil actually restores one's Torah learning - just the opposite of olives. And regarding health benefits: the literature I have seen focuses on olive oil and not on olives. The beneficial aspects of olives are that they are a good source of monosaturated fat and vitamin E. These nutrients are part of the oil contained in the olive.
To address (d): The Ramban, in his introduction to his commentary on the Torah, says that it is futile to try to understand - using logic and reason - the Kabalistic statements he includes there. One must consult the help of someone well versed in Kabalah. It is safe to say that the same applies to Kavanos of the ARI Z"L, which is what the Magen Avraham is referring to. Otherwise, I enjoyed your idea very much.
To address (e): Rav Moshe Sternbuch told me that as well.
The ben ish chai writes in ateret tifferet that if one has in mind kail - (aleph lamed gematria 31) elokim (gemat 86) and metzapetz ( the 4 letter name be' at bash, gemt 300) then the total gem. Is 417 or zayit - if one has this in mind then nothing harmful will happen).
concerning (e), Rav Chaim Kanievsky rejects this idea.
If I am not mistaken there is another Chazal that says that consuming olive oil is good for the memory. Perhaps that is the reason for the suggestion of mixing the olives with the oil to neutralize the bad effects of the olives.
What is Dov Freedman referring to?
Yes, the Gemara here says so. But Rav Kanievsky says one should refrain from eating olives even if he eats them with the oil. Just stick to the oil.
why does not the gemara find the need for special sources to support that olives are different than olive oil, when it would seem that in general kol hayotzai min hatame - tame or of the same type, and such sources are needed as in the cases of milk or honey. thank you.
Firstly, it must be stressed that our Gemara is not discussing Halachos concerning what is permitted or forbidden to eat, but rather it is telling us what is recommended for someone who wants to be succesful in Torah study and what is advisable to refrain from. Therefore, someone who is accustomed to eating olives has not transgressed any prohibition but rather this habit will make it harder for him to understand and remember his Torah learning.
In contrast, when the MISHNAH BECHOROS 5b states that what emerges from the impure is impure and what emerges from the pure is pure, this is teaching a Halachah which is stated in Shulchan Aruch and is binding upon every Jew. This is why it is not necessary for the Gemara to cite sources for the difference between olives and olive oil.
However, the difference between olives and olive oil may be explained as follows. The reason that olive oil is so good for learning is found in the verse (MISHLEI 6:23) "For the Mitzvah is like a candle and the Torah is light". Gemara Shabbos 23b states that someone who is diligent in lighting Shabbos and Chanukah candles will be given sons who are Torah scholars. RASHI DH BANIM explains that the light of Torah comes through the candles of the Mitzvos. Therefore, olive oil is recommended for acquiring Torah as Menachos 85b states that in Teko'a, because they consumed oil, wisdom was found amongst them.
In contrast, an olive represents someone who keeps the oil of the Torah within himself and does not teach it to others. Consequently he forgets his learning. On the other hand, a Talmid Chacham who imparts his Torah is similar to olive oil which flows out. Therefore he remembers his Torah for 70 years. (See RIVEVOS EFRAIM on the Torah, by R. Efraim Greenblatt of Memphis TN, Parshas Tetzave DH UBE'HORAYOS).
KOL TUV
D. Bloom
(a) Even though there is no law it is difficult to understand why the conceptual framework should differ here, and why the gemara itself does not find an explanation necessary. Also this isn't simply aggadah it is meant to in some way work.
(b) Moreover, why isn't it halacha? Does not remembering your studies or doing whatever is possible in order to remember them, such as reviewing, not fall under the requirment of talmud torah. At the very least, there are general ideas like mitchayev b'nafsho and chadin b'ficha. I could use some olive oil and can't think of any examples but I believe Tosfot often does ask questions from halachic principles even to aggadah and that is a legitimate aggadda method.
(c) In any case, does it come out that it is merely a siman or a metaphysical connection rather than a chemical connection. Is that correct. Would it work for non jews, or for someone unaware of this explanation, for instance. Does it work only for general memory. Is this non chemical view how to understand food and medicinal suggestions in general or is this unique, or must they be evaluated case by case.
(d) Also, we find that a torah scholar who doesn't teach is compared to a myrtle in the dessert but in such a case there is no punishment of forgetting one's learning.
(e) Also, the source in Menachot speaks of wisdom which is distinct from recall or da'at, and the context there. Isn't the context there that Solomon's wisdom in detecting the plot even is greater. Do the any of the Rishonim like the Rambam who do not quote this halacha give a reason for leaving it out when there are no opposing views in the gemara to it.
Thank you.
Dear 07532,
Rav Chaim Kanievski Sh'lita in his Sefer ha'Zikaron brings from the Sefer Chasidim 1503 that one is not "Chayav" for forgetting Torah "unless he sits and removes them from his heart". Explains Rav Chaim that it is not automatic that he will forget (by eating, etc,), it causes (only) weakening of the memory. However, being idle and not reviewing will definitely make him forget!
Concerning olives, he quotes Rabeinu Bachye in va'Yishlach that the olive tree has no heart (?) and therefore maybe by nature, its fruit causes forgetfulness.
Magen Avraham (170:19) brings that one who eats olives with the proper Kavanah will help his memory! (He is referring to the Ari Zal's teachings.)
Rav Yakov Emden writes that only raw olives are a problem and not cooked or pickled. However, R'Chaim disagrees.
In reference to your questions:
(a) There is no difficulty in olives being different than oil - just like raw chicken is bad for digestion, and chicken soup is soothing (both if it's physical or metaphysical).
(b) Explained above by Rav Kanievsky.
(c) I don't know.
(d) What's difficult here?
(e) As was said earlier, it is not forbidden to eat olives. Therefore it can't be called "left out" from any collection of Halachah.
All the best,
Reuven Weiner