Dear Kollel,
My question is on the gemara in Zevachim 116a:
v'Ha Kesiv va'Yikach Yisro Olah u'Zevachim. Hahu l'Achar Matan Torah Hu d'Kesiv. Hanicha l'M"D [Yisro] Achar Matan Torah Hayah, Eleh l'M"D [Yisro] Kodem Matan torah Hayah, Mai Ika l'Meimar. d'Itmar Bnei R. Chiya v'Rebbi Yehoshua Ben Levi, Chad Amar Kodem Matan Torah Hayah, v'Chad Amar Achar Matan Torah Hayah. lM'D Yisro Kodem Matan Torah Hayah ka'Savar Shelamim Hikrivu Bnei Noach.
The gemara connects the permissibility of a ben noach being permitted to bring a korban shelamim to whether Yisro came before matan torah or after matan torah. Thus, the opinion that holds that Yisro came before matan torah would hold that bnei noach may bring shelamim, and the opinion that holds Yisro came after matan torah holds that bnei noach may not bring shelamim.
It would seem, then, according to the opinion that Yisro came after matan torah, the understanding is that he converted at that time and brought the korbanos shelamim mentioned in parashas yisro as part of that celebration or event. However, according to the opinion that he came before matan torah, when are we to assume that Yisro converted? Is the assumption that, since he came before matan torah, he joined klal yisorel in their preparations for matan torah and he partook in the actual kabals hatorah, so that made him a full fledged jew; that was his conversion?
Furthermore, the gemara in Sanhederin says:
va'Yichad Yisro Rav u'Shmuel. Rav Amar she'He'evir Cherev Chadah Al Besaro, u'Shemuel Amar she'Na'aseh Chidudim Chidudim Kol Besaro. Amar Haynu d'Amarei Inshei. Giora Ad Asara Dorei Lo Sevazeh Aramai Kameih.
According to Rav, it seems clear that Yisro came to bnei yisroel, immediately circumcised himself and converted. How does Rav's opinion comport with the dispute regarding when Yisro actually came? By Rav saying that he immediately converted upon his arrival, is he implicitly agreeing with the opinion that Yisro came after matan torah and converted when he came? Because according to the opinion that Yisro came before matan torah, he did not convert upon his arrival as the gemara in zevachim says:
... lM'D Yisro Kodem Matan Torah Hayah ka'Savar Shelamim Hikrivu Bnei Noach.
he was still a ben noach and the gemara proves from his arrival time that a ben noach can bring a shelamim!
Or, perhaps Rav's opinion can indeed fit with the opinion that Yisro came before matan torah and when Rav says that Yisro circumcised himself and converted, he just means that he prepared himself for a full conversion with bnei yireol at kabalas hatorah, but not that he was a full fledged jew after his circumcision?
Thank you,
Donny Wartenberg
1) What we must be aware of is that even before we received the Torah there already existed the concept of conversion. We find this idea in a number of places, one of which is the Gemara in Chagigah 3a which states that Avraham was "the first of the converts." We find another interesting Gemara in Sotah 10a which tells us that before Yehudah had relations with Tamar he asked her if she was a Nochris. She replied, "I am a Giyores." Rashi writes that this means that she was telling Yehudah that she does not worship idols and therefore she is fitting for him.
2) On the other hand, Rashi in Zevachim 116a (DH Zevachim) writes that before the Torah was given, everyone had a din of a Ben Noach. Rashi means by this that even one who had "converted" was still considered a Ben Noach. This is because before we received the Torah there was no such thing as the People of Israel.
3) Another important source is the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim 9:1 who writes that Adam was commanded to observe 6 Mitzvos. The Mitzvah of circumcision was added to Avraham, and subsequently addtional Mitzvos were given to Yitzchak, Yakov, and Amram, until Moshe came and received the entire Torah.
4) On the basis of these principles your questions may be answered. Even if Yisro came before Matan Torah, he could have converted then, because the conversion would mean that he accepted the Mitzvos that were observed by Bnei Yisrael (who were the children of Yisrael but not yet the People of Yisrael, because before we received the Torah we were not yet a "people"). This included the 6 Mitzvos of Bnei Noach, circumcision and praying Shacharis as accepted by Avraham, praying Minchah and separating tithes as Yitzchak did, and not eating the sciatic nerve and praying Ma'ariv as Yakov did, plus the addtional Mitzvos that they had been commanded in Egypt.
5) Similarly, it is possible that Rav in Sanhedrin 94a agrees with the opinion that Yisro came before Matan Torah. He circumcised himself because this was one of the Mitzvos that Bnei Yisrael practiced before Matan Torah, since Avraham had been commanded to perform Bris Milah.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
I would just like to add on a very short point to what I wrote above
If one looks closely at the sugya itself in 116a one sees that even according to the opinion that Yisro came before Matan Torah, nevertheless he converted upon arrival. The proof is as follows.
Firstly the Gemara states that there is a dispute between the sons of Rav Chiya and between R Yehoshua ben Levi whether Yisro came before or after Matan Torah. The Gemara states that the opinion that he came before Matan Torah must maintain that Bnei Noach brought Shelamim. Then the Gemara says that there is a dispute between Tanaim whether he came before or after Matan Torah. The beraisa that the Gemara cites asks
"?What did he hear that made him come and convert"
Then the Beraisa proceeds to cite the dispute whether he came before or after Matan Torah. One sees from the question about what did he hear that made him come and convert that this question is applicable both to the opinion that he became before MT and also to the opinion that he came after MT. In other words even if he came before MT it is still clear that he converted as soon as he arrived. This is consistent with what I wrote above that there was such a concept of converting even before the Torah was given, but even if someone did convert he still retained a Din of a Ben Noach as Rashi DH Zevachim wrote
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom