DAF DISCUSSIONS - MENACHOS 80

S. Katz asked:

We learn on 80B, that if a Korban Todah gets mixed up with its Temurah ( regarding a Nedavah " Harai Zu " ), that we can't bring the Korban, since we don't know if to bring the Breads or not. Among the many attempts to resolve this conflict, unsuccessfully, we said lets make a Tnai regarding the Bread, if it's needed than it's for the Todah, if not it will be Chulin. The problem of course being, you can't bring Chulin into the Azurah. My question is the Gemaruh never attempts to suggest that you make the following Tnai , if it's needed then it will be for the Todah, and if not it will be Kedushat Mamon ( for Bedek Habayit ). Is the reason because you can't donate Breads to the Beis Hamikdah, because they are worthy for a Korban, like an unblemished animal, or that you are simply not allowed to bring Kedushat Mamon into the Azurah ?

The Kollel replies:

Tosfos in Bava Basra (81b) asks the question and answers that since it is brought as forty Chalos, it is clear that it is actually being brought for a Korban, and then it does not help that it is Bedek ha'Bayis.

D. Zupnik

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Below, also, are Rav Yaakov Montrose's Insights on that Daf.

2) BRINGING OBJECTS OF "BEDEK HA'BAYIS" INTO THE "AZARAH"

QUESTION: The Gemara discusses a case in which a Todah became mixed up with the animal that was designated as its Temurah, and one of them died. The Gemara says that the remaining animal cannot be brought. If the remaining animal is the original Todah, then it requires Lachmei Todah. If, on the other hand, it is the Temurah, then it does not require Lachmei Todah. Levi asks Rebbi that there is a way to bring the remaining animal. The owner should bring the remaining animal together with the Lachmei Todah, and state a condition: if the remaining animal is the original Todah, then this is the Lachmei Todah needed to accompany it. If it is the Temuras Todah, then this Lachmei Todah is Chulin. Rebbi answered Levi that it is prohibited to bring Chulin into the Azarah, and therefore Levi's suggestion is not possible.

TOSFOS (DH v'Chi) has another suggestion. The owner should bring the Lachmei Todah conditionally, by saying that if the remaining animal is the original Todah, then this is its Lachmei Todah. If the remaining animal is the Temuras Todah, then the Lachmei Todah is hereby donated to Bedek ha'Bayis. In this case, it would be permitted to bring the Lachmei Todah into the Azarah, and thus the animal could be brought as a Korban!

ANSWERS:

(a) TOSFOS answers that even though we find that such a condition may be made in other situations of doubt, we may only use such a condition when the item being brought is not really a Korban. When the item being brought is part of a regular Korban, then we say that the prohibition against bringing Chulin into the Azarah still applies, and it cannot be offset by such a condition. (According to Tosfos, the Isur to bring an object of Chulin into the Azarah applies mainly to an object of a Korban. Thus, Tosfos writes that it is permitted to wear one's normal Chulin shirt when he enters the Azarah.)

The SHITAH MEKUBETZES (#23) explains further that when one brings his Bikurim to the Beis ha'Mikdash and states that some of the fruit should be Kadosh as Bedek ha'Bayis, the Kedushah of the Bikurim fruit is not significantly different from the Kedushah of the Bedek ha'Bayis fruit, and thus it does not appear as though one is bringing Chulin into the Azarah. However, when the object is being brought conditionally because it might not be a Korban (or part of a Korban), then it is apparent that it is of much lesser Kedushah, and thus it is considered Chulin in the Azarah.

(b) TOSFOS in Bava Basra (81b, DH d'Makdish) gives a slightly different answer. He explains that when one brings forty loaves comprised of four different types (the Lachmei Todah), a condition does not help to disassociate the breads from being part of the Korban. This is because it is extremely uncommon for a person to donate for Bedek ha'Bayis exactly the same number and same types of loaves as the Lachmei Todah that are brought with a Todah. However, it is not uncommon for a person to donate fruit to Bedek ha'Bayis. Therefore, the condition in the case of Bikurim works to make the fruit of Bedek ha'Bayis considered to be Hekdesh in the Azarah, since everyone views it as Hekdesh. (See also MISHNEH L'MELECH, Hilchos Shechitah 3:2.) (Y. Montrose)