Dear Rav Kornfeld,
I've been learning with Rabbi Greenspan, going through the drashos cited by the Torah Temima.
On the Torah Temima's drasha #28 we came to his synopsis of what the gemara in Menachos 75a says explaining how the boraisa knows that mixing oil with loaves is mutually exclusive with smearing oil on wafers for those two possible ways of baking a mincha offering in an oven.
It seems to me that this passuk is not teaching true mutual exclusion.
Consider that it is obvious that I must have both flour and oil.
The passuk could well be teaching me that I cannot smear oil upon challos baked with a mixture of flour of oil, that it already has its oil, it is not to have more oil added.
But wafers are not mixed with oil, and therefore if I didn't mix with it before baking, I'll have to add oil.
If I don't add oil before baking, then it comes out as a wafer. Its too late, once it's a wafer, to consider mixing. Only smearing is an option.
Perhaps I do need this passuk to teach me what to do if I have mixed a very small amount of oil with the flour? Whatever comes out, is it a loaf or a wafer? If I consider it a loaf, and I feel it should have more oil, then I learn from this passuk that I cannot smear more oil, because that would be smearing oil on a loaf. However I cannot consider it to be a wafer, because the passuk taught me that a wafer must not have been mixed with oil.
If this is what the passuk teaches me, then it is consistent with the earlier drasha (on Menachos 63a, TT #26) about bringing half and half, that I also cannot make a baked mincha offering that is half loaf and half wafer.
Is this true that the ratio of oil and flour has to be within some bounds in order to make a proper loaf?
Is there a similar ratio for a proper smeared wafer offering?
And is it accurate that I cannot make a new offering that is halfway between a loaf and a wafer for these reasons?
Is this explained anywhere else, in the Gemara or otherwise?
Thank you.
Chaim Chesler
It is clear from the Pasuk itself that it is not talking about adding to the ready-baked Chalos or wafers, but is describing their initial preparation. In other words, the Chalah has to be initially mixed with the oil and not smeared on it; whereas the wafer must be smeared with the oil and not mixed with it. That being the case, I am not clear what you are postulating.
Also with regard to your interpretation of the Gemara cited in note 26; It is not talking about the ratio of flour to oil, but about bringing half of the quota of ten loaves in the form of loaves and half as wafers. One brings either the one or the other, but not half of each.
Please let me know if I misunderstood you or if there are any other points that need clarification.
Be'Virchas Kol Tuv,
Eliezer Chrysler
I have redrafted the question based on the first reply.
It seems to me that this passuk is not teaching true mutual exclusion.
Consider that it is obvious that I must have both flour and oil.
What do I call it if I started to mix but didn't mix enough for it to be challos, that it resembers rikikin?
Whatever it is called, is it a valid mincha offering?
What if I didn't use enough oil?
If I consider it a loaf, maybe its not sufficiently mixed. However I cannot consider it to be a wafer, because the passuk taught me that a wafer must not have been mixed with oil, and I did mix it a bit?
If this is what the passuk teaches me, then it is consistent with the earlier drasha (on 63a, TT #26) about bringing half and half, that I also cannot make a baked mincha offering that is a partially-mixed half loaf and half wafer.
Note: we initially understood this to be smearing after baking, but Rav Chrysler informs us that this is mixing and smearing before baking. We see that the Stone Chumash in their footnote says that the Rambam in Hilchos Maaseh HaKorbanos 13:18 says that in the case of wafers, most of the oil is held back to be smeared on the wafers after they are baked.
Note further that Aryeh Kaplan in The Living Torah includes additional notes. First that this is dough made from the flour mixed with warm water. That some hold that a "log" (10oz) of oil was mixed in with the dough to make challos fluffy. Or if smearing, some say just to mark the wafers with an "X" and the rest to be consumed by the Kohanim. And furthermore, some say that the matzahs were oiled after they were baked but others question this and state that they may have been oiled before baking (Ralbag).
Rav Chrysler is holding by the Ralbag, but that is not the only opinion.
So our original question, if before baking, could this passuk be teaching us that if it's challos, no smearing after baking, and if it's a wafer, it must have smearing after baking because otherwise it has no oil?
And if one smears challos after baking, that invalidates it?
Rashi (page 22-23 of Sapirstein) has what to say about oil before/after baking.
One opinion is to smear and smear again repeatedly until a full "log" of oil is used.
And some other options for the letter shape of smearing.
Sholom Rav
You seem to assume that the technical difference between Chalos and Rekikin lies in the amount of oil that is used. But this is not correct. 'Chalos' are thick (one Tefach), whereas 'Rekikin' are thin (like out Matzos). So you can add as much oil as you like to Rekikin, they will not become Chalos, and likewise, a minimal amount of oil in Chalos will not render them Rekikin. Secondly, every Minchah must comprise at least an Isaron of flour, and each Isaron requires a Log of oil. As the Mishnah teaches us in the first Perek of Menochos, if one adds (an extra Log) or detracts (even one iota) from that, the Minchah is Pasul.
The Torah now informs us that a Minchas Ma'afeh Tanur can either be brought as Chalos, in which case the one Log of oil must be mixed into the dough (and not smeared), or in the form of Rekikin, in which case the Log of oil must not be mixed but smeared (some say before baking, others say after baking). Presumably, if, according to the first opinion, one failed to smear it before baking, or if according to the second opinion, one did smear it before baking, it will be Pasul.
I hope that this answers all your questions
be'Virchas Kol Tuv,
Eliezer Chrysler