(b) According to the Gemara, the girl turns round as it is being born, whereas a boy does not, and it is that which causes the excessive pain at childbirth.

(c) A girl turns round, because she needs to face upwards (as we shall see later in the Sugya), and during the pregnancy she is facing downwards like a boy.

Dear rabi,

could one explain[or have any idea about this idea],what the talmud means with the above mentioned answer? [quoted from your questions and answer on the daf]

what is known now adays,is that there is no difference of the position of the foetus,being it a boy or girl.

I would appreciate any suggestion you would have.

also,now adays ,according to the general opinion [chogmat gojiem??]the birth of a boy is more complicated or difficult,but this is not my main concern.

toda raba ,

h.j. bueno de mesquita, jerusalem,israel

On the simplest level this is just another example of "Nishtanu ha'Tevi'im." We find many cases of this such as the inability to conceive from Bi'ah Rishonah, the Ben Shemonah Chadashim who is not a Bar Kayama, the size of a k'Zayis, etc.

It is quite clear that the Gemara assumes a different position for a female fetus than that of a male. So too in Midrash Rabah Bereishis 17:8: "They asked Rebbi Yehoshua, 'Why does the male emerge with his face downward and the female with her face upwards?'"

The commentary of Midrash Rabah ha'Mevu'ar writes, "This was the nature of the thing in their days. The nature has changed such that both a son and a daughter emerge sometimes this way and sometimes that way."

In this instance it is not Halachically relevant but the Acharonim have had to grapple with this concept in many other instances. To take just one example, see Chazon Ish YD 155:4 and EH 115:4 in regard to the eight-month fetus: "And it appears that now the nature has changed, and according to the expertise of the doctors, it is possible that their (the fetuses') completion occurred after the seventh month and is completed in the eighth."

On a deeper level, however, it is possible that Chazal spoke in code language in Aggadic passages and did not necessarily mean it actually happened that way physically. It could be conceptually so. Here is what the Ramchal writes in his Ma'amar Al ha'Agados:

"Furthermore, you must know that many matters of fundamental secrets were hinted at by Chazal in discussions of matters of the natural world..., and they used the studies that were taught to them in those generations by men of wisdom of the natural world. However, their main intention is not the particular issue of nature that they discussed, but rather the secret that they wanted to allude to in it. Therefore, whether or not the outer garb of allegory in which they clothed the secret is accurate does not add or detract to the truth of that which is alluded to in it. This is because the intention was to clothe the secret in information that was well-known in those generations among the wise men, and that matter could have been clothed in a different garb according to the information that was well-known in other generations. Indeed, that is how the Sage himself would have disguised his teaching had he said it in a different generation.

So in this case it could also be nothing more than a Mashal; for example, that a girl fetus experiences such movement mean that there are more problems involved with bringing a girl into the world than a boy (for a girl needs to be looked after and protected from abuse, it costs quite a lot to marry her off, and there is none of the kudos attached to having a boy, as per the end of Kidushin). And although here we are talking of Tza'ar Leidah, nonetheless the amount of pain one actually suffers must of necessity be related to the beneficial consequences which will subsequently flow from it.

Kol Tuv,

Joseph Pearlman

While with regard to many Agados one can discuss whether or not it is a metaphor, I believe that this one is not a metaphor, since it is brought in Soteh 11b as the sign that Pharaoh gave to the Jewish midwives to know whether the child will be a boy or a girl.

If so, this is one of the things for which we must apply the rule that "Nishtanu Hativ'im" (and not only the science), as we find many issues of pregnancy and birth which are different now than in the times of the Talmud (Veses Kavu'a, getting period in first three months of pregnancy, getting period within 24 months after birth).

On a deeper level, based on the Shemos Raba on Shemos 1:16 (also citedin the Maharsha in Sotah) and Rashi (Sotah), the Gemara perhaps may mean as follows: The Mishnah in Avos states that "Ba'al Korchoch Atah Nolad" (i.e. a person is born against his will), as the Neshamah would rather stay close to G-d and not have to allowed the possibilty of being soiled, as such it refuses to be born.

Kol Tuv,

Yitzchok Zirkind