Why do some meforshim give a lengthy time to the rule of Shaul before he died when we have explicit information that he ruled only a total of 3 years? The lengthier times suggested by some moforshim (1 Shmuel 13:1) would mean that Shaul ruled at the time Shilo was destroyed (14 years before Dovid was anointed), yet there is not a single mention of Shmuel having made Shaul king when Eli was still alive and Shilo still existed.
David Goldman, NYC
I do not know to which specific Meforshim you refer, however the Ralbag and Rabeinu Yeshaya (the Rid) both explain this Pasuk differently than the Seder Olam. The Ralbag says that the Pasuk means that the following events took place two years after Shaul became king. In this case we can assume that Shaul remained king for longer than two years. The Rid says that even though we only count two years for Shaul as the Seder Olam learns from this Pasuk, this is because we do not count the years when he acted as king after Shmuel secretly anointed Dovid. According to both these explanations it would seem that Shaul's rule is extended into years later than he ruled according to the Seder Olam, and not earlier.
Dov Freedman
Thank you. Certain meforshim say that it is inconceivable that so many things happened while Shaul was king for such a short period (one year before Dovid was anointed and then approximately 2 more afterwards). Within that 2 year period he served Shaul for a while, was then persecuted by Shaul, and then spent several months in Ziklag before moving to Chevron after Shaul died. But how do these meforshim get to 17 years or 20 years?
The destruction of Shilo happened about 14 years before Dovid was anointed, and there are no sources indicating Shaul was king while Shilo existed and Eli was alive.
As I wrote, I am not aware of any Meforshim who say that Shaul was king at such an early stage, I would like to look into this if you could please let me know which Meforshim you are referring to.
Dov Freedman
Thanks. I was looking at the Meam Loez on 1 Shmuel 13:1 and the sources mentioned in Seder Haolam and Rabbi Rosenberg's Nach with commentary from Rishonim on that posuk (Abarbanel, Radak, Ralbag).
I have checked in the Yalkut Me'am Loeiz as well as in the Radak, Ralbag and Abarbanel, but I do not see that anyone is suggesting that Shaul's rule started earlier than at the point Rashi (Temurah 15a) says, i.e. eleven years after Eli died. The question is for how long he ruled afterwards. Those who wish to extend his rule extend it to a later date, not by pre-dating the start of his rule. I do not have access to Rabbi Rosenberg's Nach, so I cannot comment on what he writes.
Dov Freedman
I have attached the three pages from the digest of R. Rosenberg's Nach. K refers to Radak and A to Abarbanel and G to Ralbag.
The Seder Olam says that Dovid was anointed by Shmuel at age 29, and that the year after that Shaul died followed by Shmuel 4 months later. So it was at age 30 he ruled in Chevron after 4 months in Ziklag. Therefore the redifas from Shaul only lasted a total of less than one year.
In any event, what is brought in the attached of the meforshim would appear to change the chronology.
David
Thank you for the attachments. Rabbi Rosenberg brings the opinion of the Abarbanel who offers an alternative view to that of the Seder Olam. However, there is still no suggestion that Shaul's rule started earlier than the date given by the Seder Olam. The Abarbanel is suggesting that Shaul's rule lasted later than the time given in the Seder Olam, and that the two years mentioned in the Pasuk do not refer to the whole length of Shaul's reign, but to the length of his reign at the time of the events related to in the following Pasuk (13:2) or to the time he reigned before Dovid's anointment.
This is obviously not consistent with the opinion of the Seder Olam that Shaul died a year after Dovid was anointed.
Dov Freedman