More Discussions for this daf
1. The Shechitah of an idolater 2. Eating from Achav's Shechitah 3. Mumar l'Chalel Shabbos l'Te'avon
4. Tosfos DH Raban Gamliel 5. רש״י ד״ה ישראל מעליא הוא
DAF DISCUSSIONS - CHULIN 5

henry hoschander asked:

what is the halachic status of a mumar l'challel shabbos l'te'avon?

henry hoschander, toronto, canada

The Kollel replies:

This is a very broad question. There is a difference between someone who does so publicly and someone who does so privately, and there are various ways to apply this status. Additionally, there is a difference if he is educated about Yiddishkeit or is more of what is called a Tinok she'Nishba. If you can be more specific with your question (is it regarding his wine, him joining a Minyan, a Mezuman, inviting him for Yom Tov when he will drive, Lifnei Iver etc.), I could give a more specific answer.

All the best,

Yaakov Montrose

henry hoschander asked:

What is the Halachic status of a mumar l'challel shabbos l'te'avon? My question pertains to both Shechita and Stam yeinom. I am discussing a Mumar who is not in the category of tinok sh'nishboh.

henry hoschander, toronto, canada

The Kollel replies:

The status of a Mumar l'Chalel Shabbos l'Te'avon is not mentioned specifically in the Gemara; only that of a Mumar Ochel Neveilos l'Te'avon. But there is no reason to believe that their statuses would differ. Ochel Neveilos is but one example of an Aveirah that a person would have a strong physical desire to do.

Any other Aveirah - with the exception of Avodah Zarah - that a person does l'Te'avon would confer on him the status of Mumar l'Te'avon and consequently he is considered to be a Yisrael regarding Shechitah and Stam Yeinam. (A Mumar l'Avodah Zarah, even if it is l'Te'avon, has the status of a Mumar Lehach'is, and is treated like a non-Jew). On the other hand, a Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya has the status of a Mumar Lehach'is and is equated with a non-Jew regarding Shechitah and Stam Yeinam.

Kol Tuv,

Yonasan Sigler

This is not a Psak Halachah

Henry Hoschander asks further:

I believe you are contradicting yourself. Your opening statement suggests that the status of mumor l'teiavon is confered upon all except for avodah zoroh, and you conclude that a mechalel shabbos b'farhesyah is treated like a mumor l'avodah zoroh.

I am fully aware of the fact that shabbos is the equal of avodah zoroh . However, is it not conceivable that one is mechalel shabbos b'farhesyah l'teiavon and not l'hachis ? For example, one drives to a shul on shabbos because he enjoys the conviviality of its atmosphere. Is his yayin categorized as stam yeinom ? Please respond.

Henry Hoschander

The Kollel replies:

I do not believe that I contradicted myself, but perhaps I should state more clearly what I wrote in the first letter. To wit: a Mechalel Shabbos l'Tei'avon b'Tzina is equivalent to a Mumar Ochel Neveilos l'Tei'avon, and his Shechitah is Kosher b'Di'evad and his touching wine does not forbid it. A Mechalel Shabbos l'Tei'avon b'Farhesya, however, is equivalent to a Mumar l'Kol haTorah. In other words, the case of the Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya that the Gemara speaks about is referring to one who is Mechalel Shabbos l'Tei'avon and the only thing that makes his status so Chamur is the fact that he does the Chilul Shabbos in public.

The Mishnah Berurah says this explicitly (385:4): "Know that the whole [preceeding discussion which says that a Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya is equivalent to a Mumar l'Kol haTorah] is speaking about one who violates [Shabbos l'Tei'avon], but if he did it out of spite (l'Hach'is) then even if it was one of the other prohibitions, and even if not done publicily, his status is that of a non-Jew." In other words, the Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya is specifically referring to one who violates Shabbos l'Tei'avon. Therefore your case of one who "drives to shul on Shabbos because he enjoys the conviviality of its atmosphere" would certainly be considered a Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya.

At the end of your last letter you asked: "Is his yayin categorized as stam yeinom?" If you are asking a theoretical question about a Jew that lived in the times of Chazal, I would say that he is treated like a non-Jew regarding his Shechitah and regarding touching wine. However, if you are a asking a practical question about a Jew today that is Mechalel Shabbos l'Tei'avon b'Farhesya, the answer is that it is a Machlokes ha'Poskim ha'Acharonim.

See Rashi (Chulin 5a) who explains why a Mumar l'Avodah Zarah and a Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya are treated like a Mumar l'Kol haTorah. Rashi writes that a Mumar l'Avodah Zarah is Kofer beha'Kadosh Baruch Hu and a Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya is Kofer b'Ma'aseh Bereishis (he does not believe that Hashem rested on the seventh day). Based on this Rashi, the Binyan Tzion, in a landmark Teshuvah (Chadashos, #23) suggests that Mechalelei Shabbos of our times (he lived in Germany in the 1800's) do not have the status of Mechalel Shabbos b'Farhesya, because even though they do Melachah -- even d'Oraysa -- on Shabbos, they daven and make Kidush, and therefore they are still Modeh on Ma'aseh Bereishis. The problem is that many Jews today do not even daven or make Kidush. Therefore, his Heter would probably not apply to them.

The Bi'ur Halachah, however, makes a statement (OC 385:3, DH O l'Chalel Shabbosos) that is relevant to most people today who are Mechalel Shabbos: "This is true only when he does [the Aveirah] out of a motivation to cast off the yoke of Torah observance, but if he is [simply] mistaken and thinks that it is permissible to do [what he did], it makes sense that he is not included in the category of Mumar." This would probably apply to the typical secular Jew today who is not Mechalel Shabbos out of Prikas Ol but simply out of ignorance.

Nevertheless, there are Poskim today who treat Mechalelei Shabbos of our time as they were treated by Chazal (see Shevet ha'Levi 2:53, and Teshuvos v'Hanhagos 1:400). For an exhaustive treatment of this subject, see Rav Ovadyah Yosef's Teshuvah in Yabi'a Omer, YD 1:12.

b'Chavod,

Yonasan Sigler

This is not a Psak Halachah