Question: Yoledes b'Zov is Yochi'ach! She is Soser according to Rav, who says that there is one Mayan, even though Dam Tohar does not cause any Tum'ah!

Answer: We consider Dam Tohar to cause Tum'ah, for if not for the birth, she would be a Zavah or Nidah according to Rav, who says that there is one Mayan. (I.e. the same blood causes Tum'ah at other times.)

This is unlike Dam Koshi, for whatever blood she sees due to pain of birth does not cause Zivah.

Inference: This implies that we hold like the opinion that does not expound "Es", unless we will explain above (35a) "Rabanan do not expound 'Es'", i.e. for this Drashah;

However, the Gemara connotes that they do not expound it at all.

Explanation (Rashi, in one Teshuvah): Abaye agrees that Yemei Leidah in which she does not see, they count towards Sefiras Zavah (the seven clean days that she must count);

Source: This is proven from a Beraisa below (54b. A woman saw blood for two days of Zivah, and on the third day we are unsure what she miscarried. Clean days of Tum'as Leidah count towards Sefiras Zavah.)

Explanation (cont.): Here, we discuss according to R. Merinus.

Support #1: The Gemara does not normally ask the same matter in two places. It asks here, and below (54b). (Rather, here, we discuss according to R. Merinus.)

Support #2: How could Abaye argue with the Beraisa there?

Support #3: Why did Abaye and Rava mention Stirah? They should have mentioned only Aliyah (whether the days count), which they argue about!

Conclusion: Rather, we asked whether the days count according to R. Merinus. Since he said that Leidah is not Soser, and he did not say that it counts, this connotes that he holds that it does not count;

Or, perhaps these depend on each other. Since it is not Soser, you are forced to say that it counts, from "v'Achar Tithar" - Tum'ah may not interrupt between [the days counted].

Explanation (cont.): Rava brings his source. Presumably, R. Merinus does not argue with a verse.

Abaye brings his source, that there is a Tana who argues with the Beraisa below (54b). We can say that also R. Merinus holds like this, since R. Merinus did not say "it is not Soser, and it counts", this connotes that he holds that it does not count;

Implied question: Abaye could have brought the Beraisa of To'eh (one who is unsure when she gave birth - 28b), which holds that the days do not count!

Answer: Rava would have established it like R. Eliezer, like he establishes the Beraisa below. Rashi explained like this.

Question: Rashi explained that Rava's source was that presumably, R. Merinus does not argue with a verse. This is difficult, for you are forced to say that R. Eliezer argues [with the verse]!

Answer: [Indeed, Abaye] could have said "according to you [you are forced to say that R. Eliezer argues]!" Abaye properly rejected Rava without saying so.

Observation: Rashi explained that Rava would establish the Beraisa [of To'eh, 29b] like R. Eliezer;

He would establish it like R. Eliezer only regarding this, that the days do not count, but it is not totally like R. Eliezer;

We establish it like R. Akiva, who requires that she count the days in front of us, and R. Eliezer argues with him above (7b).

Opinion #1 (R. Tam): The Halachah follows Abaye, that the days do not count, and like the Beraisa [of To'eh, 29b].

Source - Implied question: The Gemara (30a learned three matters from the Beraisa. Why did it) not say that we learn four matters, [including] that Yemei Leidah do not count, to teach unlike the Beraisa above according to Levi, according to one answer (at the bottom of 36a)?

[This would also teach unlike] the Beraisa below (54b), which holds that the days count.

Answer: The Gemara listed only [three] Chidushim that we learn from the Beraisa. This was obvious, that the days do not count.

Explanation #2 (cont. - R. Tam): Also, we can explain the Beraisa below (54b) like Rav Papa explains it, because I can say that she gave birth to a male, therefore the second week counts towards Sefiras Zavah. (We need not say that days of Tum'as Leidah count.)

Support (for Rav Papa): The Beraisa teaches that her Korban is not eaten. If so, we can say that [perhaps] she did not give birth, and even if she gave birth, perhaps she gave birth to a male. (Due to a Sefek-Sefeka, we say that the days counted.)

Assertion: Rav Papa did not accept the words of Rav Huna there (who challenged him), and he did not retract. Rather, he holds that the days do not count.

Source: It says in our Sugya (37b) "Rav Papa said, you are forced to say that the verse equated them";

If he holds that they count, he must establish it like R. Eliezer, like Rava establishes it;

What forced him to establish it like Rabanan of R. Eliezer, who do not learn the possible from the impossible? In any case he must establish it like R. Eliezer, who says that they do not count!

Conclusion: Rather, surely he did not retract.

Rebuttal: However, if above the text says that R. Elazar says that it is Soser, and here the text says R. Eliezer, we cannot prove anything [from this];

We could say that Rav Papa's words below (54b) are not primary. Even though it is a Sefek-Sefeka, the second week does not count towards Sefiras Zavah. (Rather, the Beraisa proves that days of Tum'as Leidah count.)

This is because we must be concerned lest it is a female, like Rav Huna says there, for there is also a Sefek-Sefeka at the end of Yemei Tohar that contradicts [Rav Papa's Sefek-Sefeka. I.e. if later she sees on days 34 and 41, she need not count seven days of Nidah due to a Sefek-Sefeka. If she did not give birth, she is Shomeres Yom k'Neged Yom. And even if she gave birth, perhaps it was a female, and this is Dam Tohar!]

This is like I explained above regarding one who gave birth to a Chayah or bird (27a. We cannot be lenient due to a Sefek-Sefeka, if another leniency results from a Sefek-Sefeka that contradicts this one.)

Defense (of support for Rav Papa): However, since her Korban is not eaten, in any case there is a Sefek-Sefeka. Perhaps she did not see [blood on the third day to make her a Zavah], and even if she saw, perhaps she did not give birth [to something for which there is Tum'as Leidah].

Explanation (R. Tam): Yemei Leidah in which she does not see [blood] is the Lamed of Ya'al Kegam (an acronym of the six places in which the Halachah follows Abaye against Rava), and not Lechi (a vertical post to permit carrying in a Mavoy) that came about automatically, in Eruvin (15a).

Opinion #2: Rav Sadya Gaon wrote that we consider our women to be Yoledes b'Zov;

If the seven days of Tum'ah for a male passed, or the 14 for a female, and she counted seven clean days during Yemei Tohar, or even during the days of Tum'ah (of Leidah), she is permitted to her husband.

Until 40 days for a male or 80 for a female, even if she sees blood, the verse called it Dam Tohar.

So Chachamim taught, that Yemei Leidah in which she does not see count towards Sefiras Zavah.

Observation: [Rav Sadya Gaon] explicitly argues with R. Tam.

Implied question: Why didn't the Gemara (30a) say that we learn four matters?

Answer: It lists only matters for which we can say "this is like Ploni", like it says "we infer that this is like R. Akiva", "we infer that this is like R. Shimon", "we infer that Tevilah bi'Zmanah Mitzvah, unlike R. Yosi b'Rebbi Yehudah";

However, here that the days do not count, we cannot say "this is like R. Eliezer", for Abaye holds that all agree that they do not count.

Question: Rava holds below (66a) that the womb cannot open [for birth] without blood. If so, it should be Soser, for here we require seven clean days without blood!

Answer: Rava said according to R. Merinus, like I explained [in the previous Dibur], and he holds that the womb can open without blood, for he says that it is not Soser.

Question: Below (54a), it says that Yemei Nidah in which she does not see, they count towards Sefiras Zavah!

Answer: There we discuss a Zavah Ketanah (Shomeres Yom k'Neged Yom) who sees on day 11. Day 12 is the beginning of Nidah, and it counts for her. (There we discuss a girl who alternates between eight consecutive days of blood, and eight consecutive clean days. She sees on days 17 and 18 (days 10 and 11 of Zivah. This obligates guarding a clean day before she is permitted.) She becomes Nidah on day 19. Bi'ah is permitted on day 26. We must say that day 25 (her next clean day), even though it was her seventh day of Nidah, counts for Shemirah - Aruch l'Ner.)

Explanation: We do not challenge a Hekesh (even though we learn from what is impossible).

Question: In Menachos (82a), R. Akiva challenged R. Eliezer "do we learn the possible from the impossible?!", even though R. Eliezer expounded a Hekesh from "v'Avadta" - all Avodos are the same. (Just like Pesach Mitzrayim was from Chulin, for there was no Ma'aser or Hekdesh at the time, also Pesach Doros.)

Also R. Akiva expounds the Hekesh of "v'Avadta" in Pesachim (96a)!

Answer: There, we cannot say "you are forced to say that the Torah equated them", for we need the Hekesh for those Drashos in Pesachim.

Implied question: In Sukah (2b) we do not ask like this against R. Yehudah, who is Machshir a Sukah up to 40 or 50 Amos!

Answer: There, we knew that this was not precise. Rather, he says "40 or 50" like people say, and even if it is more;

However, here it is specifically 50, like it teaches below "the 50 [days] that a baby is Metaher."

Citation (Shabbos 126b) Question: (The Mishnah taught how much grain one may clear out to make room for guests.) It taught five baskets. Need it teach four?!

Explanation #1: The Makshan thought that [five] is precise. The Gemara answered that it is not precise. Rather, it is like people say "four or five" [and even more].

Explanation #2: The Gemara gave another answer, that we permit only four from a small storehouse, or five from a big storehouse.

Citation (Kesuvos 60a - Beraisa - R. Yehoshua): A child may nurse four or five years.

Explanation: Also there, we do not ask, because five is not precise. Rather, it is as much as he needs, like it says there "even if he can carry a bundle on his shoulder."

Citation (Chulin 132b): A Kohen Shochet is exempt for two or three weeks from Matanos (giving the foreleg, jaw and stomach of a slaughtered Chulin animal to a Kohen). After this, he must give the Matanos [to another Kohen].

Explanation: There, it says two according to Rebbi, who holds that two occurrences make a Chazakah, and three according to R. Shimon ben Gamliel.

Question: What did Rav Ada add? Also according to Rav, days proper for Sefirah [and not for Zivah] are the seven days [of Nidah] after 11 days [of Zivah], and then begin 11 more days, which are days of Zivah;

If so, also according to Rav, Koshi is always Metaher!

Answer #1: She is not a Nidah until seven days of Sefirah pass after 11 days [of Zivah, and then she sees]. If she sees then, even b'Koshi, she is Tamei according to Rav. (The days are not proper for Zivah or Sefirah);

According to Rav Ada she is Tehorah, for the days are proper for Sefirah [after] Stirah [of days counted for] Zivah.

Answer #2 (R. Chananel): Levi is Metaher only nine days proper to become a Zavah, but not days 10 and 11, which are not proper to [begin to] become a Zavah;

Even if she saw [on 10 and 11, and] also on day 12, she is only a Nidah.

Rav adds days proper for Sefirah (for one who already became a Zavah), e.g. 10 and 11, and the five days after them;

However, if she saw in the last two days of the last seven days (starting from 12, i.e. 17 or 18), she is Teme'ah according to Rav.

Rav Ada adds even those two days (they are proper for Sefirah for one who finished becoming a Zavah on day 10 or 11). It turns out that all of them are Tehorim.