MENACHOS 87 (2 Sivan) - This Daf has been dedicated in memory of Harry Bernard Zuckerman, Baruch Hersh ben Yitzchak (and Miryam Toba), by his children and sons-in-law.

1)

(a)Our Mishnah invalidates wine that is sweet, boiled or smoked even Bedieved, but permits ha'Listavan (which is also sweet) Bedieved. To resolve the discrepancy, Ravina says K'roch ve'Tani. What does he mean by that?

(b)Rav Ashi disagrees. What distinction does he draw between the two kinds of sweetness?

(c)Rebbi in our Mishnah, invalidates old wine. Chizkiyah cites his source as the Pasuk in Pinchas "u'Revi'is ha'Hin *la'Keves Yayin*". How does he learn it from there?

1)

(a)Our Mishnah invalidates wine that is sweet, boiled or smoked even Bedieved, but permits ha'Listavan (which is also sweet) Bedieved. To resolve the discrepancy, Ravina says K'roch ve'Tani - by which he means that the text must read Ein Mevi'in ha'Listavan, L'fi she'Ein Mevi'in Lo Masuk ... ; ve'Im Heivi, Pasul (see also 'Tosfos' DH 'K'roch ve'Tani').

(b)According to Rav Ashi - sweet wine is Pasul Bedi'eved, because the sweetness is created by the fruit itself; whereas ha'Listavan is Kasher, because its sweetness is caused by the sun.

(c)Rebbi in our Mishnah, invalidates old wine. Chizkiyah cites his source as the Pasuk in Pinchas "u'Revi'is ha'Hin *la'Keves Yayin*" - comparing wine to a lamb, which must be in its first year.

2)

(a)What does the Beraisa say about wine that is two years old?

(b)How do we know that the author is Rebbi?

(c)How does this refute Chizkiyah's suggested source?

(d)How does Rava therefore learn it from the Pasuk in Mishlei "Al Teire Yayin ki Yis'adam"?

2)

(a)The Beraisa - validates Bedieved, wine that is two years old.

(b)We know that the author is Rebbi - since he is the Tana who invalidates old wine Lechatchilah.

(c)This refutes Chizkiyah's suggested source - because if we learned old wine from a lamb, it would be Pasul even Bedieved.

(d)Rava therefore learns it from the Pasuk in Mishlei "Al Teire Yayin ki Yis'adam" - which teaches us that wine must be red, and its redness begins to dissipate after one year (see also Rabeinu Gershom).

3)

(a)What does the Beraisa comment on Keramim ha'Avudim?

(b)Rav Yosef used to plow his vineyard twice a year. What happened as a result?

(c)The Beraisa comments on the ruling of our Mishnah forbidding large barrels Kadiyos Ludiyos Beinoniyos. What does that mean?

(d)How should they (not) be stored?

3)

(a)Commenting on Keramim ha'Avudim, the Beraisa states that - the vineyards which produced wine for the Nesachim should be plowed twice a year.

(b)Rav Yosef used to plow his vineyard twice a year, as a result of which - he was able to add six parts water to one part wine, instead of the usual three.

(c)The Beraisa comments on the ruling of our Mishnah, forbidding large barrels Kadiyos Ludiyos Beinoniyos - meaning that one should use the medium size barrels that they used in Lud ...

(d)... which should not be stored - one on top of the other.

4)

(a)We learned in our Mishnah how the Gizbar would bang on the barrel with his cane the moment the dregs began to emerge from the tap. Why did he not announce it verbally?

(b)What does Rebbi Yochanan, the author of this statement, present as the antithesis of wine in this regard?

(c)Rebbi Yochanan asks whether, according to Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah in our Mishnah, someone who declares wine containing fungal growth, will receive Malkos, because, as we learned in the Mishnah, he considers it a Ba'al-Mum. Why, on the other hand, might he not be subject to Malkos?

(d)What is the outcome of the She'eilah?

4)

(a)We learned in our Mishnah how the Gizbar would bang on the barrel with his cane the moment the dregs began to emerge from the tap. He did not announce it verbally is - because talking causes wine to deteriorate.

(b)Rebbi Yochanan, the author of this statement, presents - Ketores as the antithesis of wine in this regard, as speaking to it enhances its quality.

(c)Rebbi Yochanan asks whether, according to Rebbi Yossi b'Rebbi Yehudah in our Mishnah, someone who declares Hekdesh wine containing fungal growth will receive Malkos, because, as we learned there, he considers it a Ba'al-Mum. On the other hand, he might not be subject to Malkos - because the term Ba'al-Mum is restricted to animals.

(d)The outcome of the She'eilah is - Teiku.

5)

(a)The Beraisa cites Mo'av as the ideal location for rams, and Chevron, as the ideal location for lambs. Where does one go for the best ...

1. ... calves?

2. ... birds (doves and pigeons)?

(b)Based on the Pasuk in Yeshayah "Yir'eh Mikn'cha ba'Yom ha'hu Kar Nirchav", what does Rebbi Yehudah there say about lambs?

5)

(a)The Beraisa cites Mo'av as the ideal location for rams, and Chevron, as the ideal location for lambs. For the best ...

1. ... calves one goes to - the Sharon ...

2. ... and for the best birds (doves and pigeons) - to Har ha'Melech.

(b)Based on the Pasuk in Yeshayah "Yir'eh Mikn'cha ba'Yom ha'hu Kar Nirchav", Rebbi Yehudah says there that - for the Korbnanos, they would bring lambs that were so fat, that they were as wide as they were tall.

6)

(a)Yeshayah ha'Navi refers to the guardian angels that Hash-m placed on the walls of Yerushalayim. What other function do they serve?

(b)According to Rava bar Rav Shilo, they declare "Atah Sakum Terachem Tziyon" (Tehilim), and "Boneh Yerushalayim Hash-m" (ibid.) according to Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak. During which period do they say this?

(c)And when do they recite the Pasuk (also in Tehilim) "Ki Bachar Hash-m be'Tziyon, Ivah le'Moshav lo"?

6)

(a)Yeshayah ha'Navi refers to the guardian angels that Hash-m placed on the walls of Yerushalayim. Their other function is - to remind Hash-m about Yerushalayim.

(b)According to Rava bar Rav Shilo, they declare "Atah Sakum T'rachem Tziyon" (Tehilim), and "Boneh Yerushalayim Hash-m" (ibid.) according to Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak - during the time of the Churban.

(c)Whereas they recite the Pasuk (also in Tehilim) "Ki Bachar Hash-m be'Tziyon, Ivah le'Moshav lo" - when the Beis-Hamikdash is standing.

Hadran alach 'Kol Korb'nos Tzibur'

Perek Sh'tei Midos

7)

(a)According to the Tana Kama of our Mishnah, there were two dry measuring vessels in the Beis-Hamikdash, an Isaron and half an Isaron. What does Rebbi Meir say, based on the Pasuk in Pinchas "Isaron Isaron la'Keves ha'Echad"?

(b)What was the Tana Kama's Isaron used for?

(c)So how did they measure the three Sa'ah of a bull?

(d)And what was the half-Isaron used for?

7)

(a)According to the Tana Kama of our Mishnah, there were two dry measuring vessels in the Beis-Hamikdash, an Isaron and half an Isaron. Based on the Pasuk in Pinchas "Isaron Isaron la'Keves ha'Echad", Rebbi Meir said that - there were two measuring vessels of one Isaron.

(b)The Tana Kama's Isaron was used - to measure all the Menachos.

(c)They measured the three Sa'ah of a bull - one Isaron at a time ...

(d)... and the half-Isaron was used - to measure the Chavitei Kohen Gadol (which comprised one Sa'ah, but) which was divided into two, half in the morning and half in the afternoon.

8)

(a)What was the point of having two Isaron measuring vessels, according to Rebbi Meir?

(b)What was the Machuk used for? What was wrong with using the Gadush for that as well?

(c)What do the Rabbanan learn from the Pasuk there "ve'Isaron Echad la'Keves ha'Echad"?

(d)If the Rabbanan learn the measuring vessel of half an Isaron from the double expression "ve'Isaron Isaron" (Im Eino Inyan), from where does Rebbi Meir learn it?

8)

(a)The two Isaron measuring vessels according to Rebbi Meir in the Beraisa - were Gadush (a vessel that contained an Isaron when it was piled high over the top) and Machuk (a larger vessel which held an Isaron when it was just full).

(b)The Machuk was used - to measure the Chavitei Kohen Gadol, which Rebbi Meir was afraid would spill when they came to divide it, if they were to use the regular Gadush.

(c)The Rabbanan learn from the Pasuk there "ve'Isaron Echad la'Keves ha'Echad" that - there was only one Isaron.

(d)The Rabbanan learn the measuring vessel of half an Isaron from the double expression "ve'Isaron Isaron" (Im Eino Inyan); whereas Rebbi Meir learns it from - the extra 'Vav' at the beginning of "ve'Isaron ... ".

87b----------------------------------------87b

9)

(a)What do the Rabbanan then learn from the extra 'Vav'?

(b)And what does Rebbi Meir learn from "ve'Isaron Echad la'Keves ha'Echad"?

(c)The Rabbanan learn that from 'Nikudo', like Rebbi Yossi in the Beraisa (from the first "Isaron" of the "Isaron Isaron la'Keves he'Echad" mentioned on the first day of Succos). What exactly, does he mean?

(d)What does Rebbi Meir then learn from the dot?

9)

(a)The Rabbanan learn - nothing from the extra 'Vav' (since they do not consider it superfluous).

(b)From "ve'Isaron Echad la'Keves ha'Echad", Rebbi Meir learns that - there is no measuring vessel of three Isaron for the Nesachim of a bull, nor two for a ram, in the Beis-Hamikdash.

(c)The Rabbanan learn that from Nikudo, like Rebbi Yossi in the Beraisa (from the first "Isaron" of "Isaron Isaron la'Keves he'Echad" mentioned on the first day of Succos), with reference to - a Dagesh (a dot) on the 'Vav' there.

(d)Rebbi Meir - does not Darshen the dot.

10)

(a)What does the Beraisa say about bringing the Chavitei Kohen Gadol in halves?

(b)Then how does Rav Sheishes explain our Mishnah, which says that the Chatzi Isaron was to measure the Chavitei Kohen Gadol?

(c)Rami bar Chama asked Rav Chisda whether, according to Rebbi Meir, the Chatzi Isaron was Gadush or Machuk. Why did he not ask the same She'eilah according to the Rabbanan?

(d)Rav Chisda replied that we learn Rebbi Meir from Rebbi Meir and the Rabbanan from Rebbi Meir. What did he mean by that?

10)

(a)The Beraisa rules that - Chavitei Kohen Gadol may not be brought already halved.

(b)Rav Sheishes therefore explains that, when our Mishnah says that the Chatzi Isaron was to measure the Chavitei Kohen Gadol, it is referring to halving it after it has been brought to the Beis-Hamikdash.

(c)Rami bar Chama asked Rav Chisda whether, according to Rebbi Meir, the Chatzi Isaron was Gadush or Machuk. He did not ask the same She'eilah according to the Rabbanan - because he was not even sure whether, in their opinion, the *Isaron* measure was Gadush or Machuk.

(d)Rav Chisda replied that we learn Rebbi Meir from Rebbi Meir and the Rabbanan from Rebbi Meir, by which he meant that - just as Rebbi Meir himself requires Machuk for the Isaron of the Chavitei Kohen Gadol, so too, does he require Machuk for the Chatzi Isaron. And in that case, the Rabbanan (who do not argue with Rebbi Meir in this point), must also hold that the Chatzi Isaron and consequently the Isaron, were Machuk.

11)

(a)What was Rami bar Chama referring to when he asked Rav Chisda whether the Chavitei Kohen Gadol were divided by hand (by assessment) or using a K'li? How many Chalos are we talking about?

(b)On what grounds did Rav Chisda reply emphatically that they did it by hand? Which Pasuk did he quote?

11)

(a)When Rami bar Chama asked Rav Chisda whether the Chavitei Kohen Gadol were divided by hand (by assessment) or using a K'li, he was referring to - the division into six Chalos, of the half Isaron of baked dough (both in the morning and in the afternoon [see also Tosfos DH 'Bameh').

(b)Rav Chisda replied emphatically that they did it by hand - because measuring bread with scales is considered a curse, as the Torah writes in the Tochachah in Ki Savo "Ve'heishivu Lachm'chem ba'Mishkal".

12)

(a)Rami bar Chama then asked Rav Chisda whether the Kematzim become sanctified on the Godesh of the Shulchan or not. To which Kematzim is he referring?

(b)What was his She'eilah? What did he mean by Godesh?

(c)Why might they not become sanctified?

12)

(a)When Rami bar Chama then asked Rav Chisda whether the Kematzim become sanctified on the Godesh of the Shulchan or not - he was referring to the Kometz of the Minchah and of the Levonah.

(b)His She'eilah was whether or not - they become sanctified if they are placed either between two of the Chalos instead of on the actual Shulchan, or even on the Shulchan, but without the K'li into which they ought to have been placed (and Rami bar Chama referred to it as Godesh, because the Shulchan does not have a Beis Kibul [a receptacle], so that whatever is above table-level is considered Godesh).

(c)They will not become sanctified - if the Shulchan only sanctifies what it is supposed to sanctify (and in the way that it is supposed to sanctify).

13)

(a)We query Rav Chisda's answer (Eino Mekadesh) from a statement by Rebbi Yochanan. What did Rebbi Yochanan say, depending on whether the folds in the loaves extend vertically two and a half Tefachim or two Tefachim (and bearing in mind that each row of loaves consisted of six loaves)?

(b)How do we reconcile Rav Chisda with Rebbi Yochanan?

13)

(a)We query Rav Chisda's answer (Eino Mekadesh) from a statement by Rebbi Yochanan, who says that depending on whether the folds in the loaves extend vertically two and a half Tefachim or two Tefachim (and bearing in mind that each row of loaves consisted of six loaves) - the air-space above the Shulchan sanctifies fifteen Tefachim (6x2 1/2) or twelve Tefachim (6x2).

(b)And we reconcile Rav Chisda with Rebbi Yochanan - by explaining Eino Mekadesh - Likareiv (like Rav Chisda) Aval Mekadesh Lipaseil (like Rebbi Yochanan).

14)

(a)Our Mishnah now deals with the liquid measures in the Beis-Hamikdash. Based on the Hin and the Log, what were the seven liquid measures listed by the Tana Kama?

(b)According to Rebbi Eliezer b'Rebbi Tzadok, there were only two liquid measures in the Beis-Hamikdash, a Hin and a Log. How did they then measure the fractions that were necessary for bulls, rams and lambs?

(c)Rebbi Shimon dispenses with the Hin altogether, adding a measure of one and a half Lugin instead. What purpose did the latter serve?

(d)Rebbi Yehudah in a Beraisa, lists the seven liquid measures starting from a Revi'is ha'Log. What does Rebbi Meir say?

14)

(a)Our Mishnah now deals with the liquid measures in the Beis-Hamikdash. Based on the Hin and the Log, the seven liquid measures listed by the Tana Kama are Hin (six Lugin), half a Hin, a third of a Hin and a quarter of a Hin; a Log, half a Log and a quarter of a Log.

(b)According to Rebbi Eliezer b'Rebbi Tzadok, there were only two liquid measures in the Beis-Hamikdash, a Hin and a Log, and they measured the fractions that were necessary for bulls, rams and lambs - by marking the jar accordingly.

(c)Rebbi Shimon dispenses with the Hin altogether, adding a measure of one and a half Lugin instead - for the Chavitei Kohen Gadol (which required one and a half Lugin in the morning and one and a half in the afternoon).

(d)Rebbi Yehudah in a Beraisa, lists the seven liquid measures starting from a Revi'is ha'Log. Rebbi Meir lists them the other way round, starting with the Hin.

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