58b----------------------------------------58b

1)

IS ONE LASHED FOR LAV SHEBI'CHLALOS? [lashes :Lav shebi'Chlalos]

(a)

Gemara

1.

(Rava): If one offered a mixture of Se'or (sourdough) or honey on the Mizbe'ach, he is lashed (four sets of 39 lashes;) for Se'or, for honey, for a mixture of Se'or and for a mixture of honey;

2.

(Abaye): One is not lashed for Lav shebi'Chlalos (a Lav that forbids different things).

3.

Version #1: Abaye holds that he is lashed once.

4.

Version #2: Abaye totally exempts, for the Lavim are not specific like the Lav of muzzling.

5.

Pesachim 41a (Beraisa) Suggestion: Perhaps one is liable for eating a k'Zayis (of Korban Pesach) that is (totally) raw!

6.

Rejection: "Al Tochlu Mimenu Na u'Vashel Mevushal" - Na (half-roasted) and Mevushal (cooked in water) are forbidden, but raw is not.

7.

Suggestion: Perhaps raw is permitted!

8.

Rejection: It says "Ki Im Tzeli Esh."

9.

(Rav Chisda): If one cooked Pesach in hot spring water (and ate it), he is liable.

10.

(Rava): He is liable for "Ki Im Tzeli Esh" (but not for Mevushal. Rav Chisda obligates for Lav shebi'Chlalos.)

11.

(Rava): If one eats Pesach Na, he is lashed twice (for Na and for Ki Im Tzeli Esh. If he eats it Mevushal, he is lashed twice (for Mevushal and Ki Im Tzeli Esh). If he eats (a k'Zayis) Na and (a k'Zayis) Mevushal, he is lashed three times.

12.

(Abaye): One is not lashed for a Lav shebi'Chlalos.

13.

Version #1: Abaye holds that he is lashed once.

14.

Version #2: Abaye totally exempts.

15.

Bava Metzi'a 115b (Rav Huna): If a lender takes a Rechayim (the bottom millstone) for a security, he is lashed twice, for "Lo Yachavol Rechayim" and for "Ki Nefesh Hu Chovel" (taking a security used for food). If he takes a Rechayim and a Rechev (the top millstone), he is lashed three times, for these and for "Rechev".

16.

(Rav Yehudah): If one takes a Rechayim or Rechev, he is lashed only once. If he takes both he is lashed twice. "Ki Nefesh Hu Chovel" applies only to other Kelim used with food.

17.

Suggestion: Abaye and Rava argue like Rav Huna and Rav Yehudah argue.

18.

Rejection #1: Even Rav Yehudah could agree to Rava. He exempted from "Ki Nefesh Hu Chovel" only because it does not connote Rechayim and Rechev, therefore it applies only to other Kelim. However, once the Torah forbade eating the Pesach Na or Mevushal, we know that it must be roasted, so "Ki Im Tzli Esh" must be an additional Lav!

19.

Rejection #2: Even Rav Huna could agree to Abaye. Rav Huna obligated for "Ki Nefesh Hu Chovel" only because it is extra, to forbid other Kelim, therefore it also applies to Rechayim and Rechev. "Ki Im Tzli Esh" is needed for another teaching;

i.

(Beraisa): The Isur of eating the Pesach Na applies when there is a Mitzvah to eat it roasted.

20.

Nazir 38b (Abaye): One is lashed twice for eating grape pits. One is lashed twice for grape skins, and three times for eating both grape pits and skins;

21.

(Rava): He is only lashed once (for pits, and/or once for skins). One is not lashed for Lav shebi'Chlalos ("mi'Kol Asher Ye'aseh mi'Gefen ha'Yayin (from all that is made from the grapevine)".

22.

Question (Rav Papa, against Abaye - Beraisa): If a Nazir ate wet and dry grapes, grape pits and skins, and squeezed a cluster of grapes and drank the juice, he is lashed five times. (He is not lashed for "mi'Kol Asher Ye'aseh...")

23.

Answer (Abaye): The Tana did not list all the lashes he receives.

(b)

Rishonim

1.

Rambam (Hilchos Avodah Zarah 3:9): One who makes an idolatry for himself, even though he himself did not make it and he did not serve it, he is lashed for "Lo Sa'aseh Lecha Pesel v'Chol Temunah." One who makes an idolatry for others, even for a Nochri, is lashed for "vei'Lohei Masechah Lo Sa'asu Lachem." Therefore, one who makes an idolatry for himself, by himself, is lashed twice.

i.

Rebuttal (Ra'avad): Why is he is lashed? This is Lav shebi'Chlalos! We say that one is exempt for hugging and kissing, because "Lo Sa'avdem" is a Lav shebi'Chlalos; it includes many Avodos. Also here, one Lav forbids all images! Also, why does a Tosefta (Makos 4:5), which lists Aveiros for which one is lashed, obligates for anointing, cleaning, hugging...? I can answer the first question. These Avodos are not done inside (the Mikdash), so they are unlike Shechitah, so "Lo Sa'avdem" forbids all other Avodos. However, making an idol or image are the same.

ii.

Kesef Mishneh: Since the Gemara did not bring the Tosefta, this shows that one may not rely on it. The Mishnah says that one transgresses a Lav for hugging. If one were lashed, it would have said so! Also, perhaps the Tosefta means that one is lashed mid'Rabanan.

iii.

Or Some'ach: The Rambam obligates for making an idol, like the Tosefta. The Ra'avad asked that the Tosefta holds that one is lashed for Lav shebi'Chlalos, so we may not learn from it. The Kesef Mishneh's question against the Ra'avad is unfounded. The Rambam relies on the Yerushalmi, which explicitly says that one is lashed. There is one Lav for making many images; this is not Lav shebi'Chlalos, like Tosfos says in Makos. The Rambam's final words cite Toras Kohanim, which says that one is lashed twice.

iv.

Tosfos (Makos 18a DH v'Lilki): Why isn't "u'Vasar ba'Sadeh Treifah Lo Socheilu" Lav shebi'Chlalos? One who eats flesh of a living animal is lashed for this (Chulin 102b). This Lav includes anything not in its proper boundaries, i.e. a fetus that stuck a leg outside the womb (during Shechitah of its mother), or Kodshim that left the wall (of Yerushalayim)! This is like Ki Im Tzli Esh, which is Lav shebi'Chlalos! It seems that Lav shebi'Chlalos is only when one Lav forbids Isurim with different names. E.g. Ki Im Tzli Esh forbids Na and Mevushal. 'Kol sheb'Kodesh Pasul' forbids Yotzei, Tamei and other Pesulim. "U'Vasar ba'Sadeh Treifah" forbids only Yotzei, which is all one name. The Lav of Nosar includes Nosar of Todah, of Kodshim Kalim, and of Kodshei Kodoshim, but it is not Lav shebi'Chlalos (because all are called Nosar. All agree that one is not lashed for Nosar, either because one transgresses passively, or because an Aseh fixes it, but no one exempts due to Lav shebi'Chlalos.)

2.

Rambam (11:1): One may not go in the ways of the Nochrim or resemble them, not regarding their clothing, hair(style), or similar matters. It says 'uv'Chukoseihem Lo Selechu." One who wears clothing special for them, or grows his hair the way they do, or shaves the sides and leaves Bluris, i.e. hair in the middle, or shaves the hair even with the face from ear to ear and leaves the hair in back, or builds places like their houses of idolatry for many to enter, or similar things, is lashed.

3.

Rambam (Hilchos Sanhedrin 18:2): One is not lashed for Lav shebi'Chlalos.

4.

Rambam (3): This is one Lav that includes many matters, e.g. "Lo Sochlu Al ha'Dam." (This forbids eating from an animal before it dies, or from a Korban before Zerikah, or serving to mourners the first meal after the burial of someone killed by Beis Din, or for Beis Din to eat on the day they kill someone, or for a son to become a Ben Sorer u'Moreh - Sanhedrin 63a.) Alternatively, a Lav says 'do not do matter Ploni or Ploni'. One is lashed for each only if there is not a separate Lav for each, or a tradition. Therefore, one is lashed only once for Na and Mevushal.

i.

Tosfos (58b DH Ika): There are similar Sugyos in Bava Metzi'a and Pesachim. Rashi (there) explains that in Version #1, Abaye obligates once if one ate Pesach cooked in hot spring water. R. Tam disagrees, for a Beraisa forbids this without lashes. In Bava Metzi'a, we say that Rav Yehudah could agree to Rava, for "Ki Im Tzli Esh" must be an extra Lav. We do not say that it forbids Pesach cooked in hot spring water! R. Tam explains that Rava obligates twice for eating it Na if he was warned for Na and Ki Im Tzli Esh. He is lashed twice for eating it Mevushal if he was warned for Mevushal and Ki Im Tzli Esh. He is lashed three times for eating it Na and Mevushal if he was warned for all three. Abaye holds that one is not lashed for Ki Im Tzli Esh in addition to lashes for Na or Mevushal, but if he was warned only for Ki Im Tzli Esh, he is lashed for it. He is not lashed for Ki Im Tzli Esh for raw or cooked in hot spring water. Ki Im Tzli Esh applies only to what the verse explicitly mentioned.

ii.

Question: We should say that Ki Im Tzli Esh forbids raw and cooked in hot spring water, just like Ki Nefesh Hu Chovel forbids other things!

iii.

Answer (Tosfos): Had it said 'do not take Rechayim or Rechev, only things not used for food', this would resemble Pesach. 'Ki Im' would refer only to what was written above. However, it says Ki Nefesh Hu Chovel, which connotes a matter by itself. Therefore, we establish it to discuss other matters. We cannot explain our Sugya totally like R. Tam. If he was warned for Se'or and for a mixture of Se'or, why isn't he lashed for each of these?! Rather, he is not lashed twice, i.e. for a mixture of Se'or and for a mixture of honey. However, we need "mi'Kol Asher Ye'aseh mi'Gefen ha'Yayin" for other things, e.g. leaves, sprigs...

iv.

Question (Tosfos): If Rava is like Rav Yehudah, just like one is not lashed for Rechayim or Rechev for Ki Nefesh Hu Chovel, since it comes for other things, he should not be lashed for grape pits and skins for "mi'Kol Asher Ye'aseh mi'Gefen ha'Yayin", since it forbids other things!

v.

Tosfos (DH v'Ika): Here, in Bava Metzi'a and Pesachim, Rava obligates for Lav shebi'Chlalos and R. Avahu exempts. In Nazir, they hold oppositely, and Rava holds (like Version #2 here) that he is not lashed even once. There are many Sugyos that are brought oppositely in different places.

(c)

Poskim

1.

Shulchan Aruch (YD 178:1): One may not go in the ways of the Nochrim (Rema - or resemble them). One may not wear clothing special for them, or grow his hair the way they do, or shave the sides and leave hair in the middle, or shave the hair even with the face from ear to ear and leave the hair (in back). One may not build places like their houses of idolatry for many to enter, like they do.

i.

Beis Yosef (YD 178 DH u'Mah she'Chosav v'Chol): Even though one Lav forbids all these matters (of going in the ways of the Nochrim), it is not considered Lav shebi'Chlalos, because all are due to one name. Perush ha'Mishnayos (Avodah Zarah 1:3) says that one is not lashed for cutting hair like them. It seems that he considers this Lav shebi'Chlalos. We rely more on what he wrote in the Mishnah Torah.

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