(Mishnah): Asham Vadai is different (... Eglah Arufah is different... )

Question: When does Eglah Arufah become forbidden?

Answer #1 (Rav Hamnuna): It becomes forbidden when it is alive.

Answer #2 (Rava): It becomes forbidden after Arifah.

Question: Granted, Rava forbids it after an action (Arifah) was done. However, according to Rav Hamnuna, what forbids it?

R. Yanai: I was taught the time when it becomes forbidden. I do not remember.

Answer (Rabanan): Presumably, when it is taken to the Nachal Eisan it becomes forbidden.

Support (Rav Hamnuna for himself - Mishnah - R. Shimon): One is not liable (for Oso v'Es Beno) for slaughtering any of the following (since it is not considered Shechitah) -- ... Parah Adumah, Shor ha'Niskal, Eglah Arufah;

Chachamim are Mechayev for these.

I (Rav Hamnuna) forbid Eglah Arufah while it is alive. I say that they argue about whether or not the Shechitah is considered valid;

However, if it is not forbidden until Arifah, why does R. Shimon exempt? The Shechitah is valid!

Suggestion: Perhaps R. Shimon holds that Shechitah of Eglah Arufah is valid (just like Arifah, therefore it becomes forbidden).

Rejection (Mishnah): The proper way to kill Parah Adumah is invalid for Eglah Arufah. The proper way to kill Eglah Arufah is invalid for Parah Adumah;

Parah is slaughtered. If Arifah was done, it is invalid;

Eglah must be Arufah. If it was slaughtered; it is invalid.

Rava was silent. After Rav Hamnuna left, he said "I should have said that R. Shimon (argues with the Mishnah. He) is Machshir Shechitah of Eglah Arufah!"

Rav Hamnuna holds that if so, surely there would be a Mishnah or Beraisa teaching this!

Support (Rava, for himself - Mishnah): Eglah Arufah is different (than Asham Taluy). If we find the murderer before Arifah, it returns to the flock;

If it were forbidden while alive, we could not return it to the flock!

Rejection: The Mishnah means that (if we find the murderer) before the calf (was brought to Nachal Eisan, and) was ready for Arifah, it returns to the flock.

Question (Seifa): (If we find him) after Arifah, it is buried there. (Anytime before this, it returns to the flock. We must explain the Reisha like Rava!)

Answer #1: The Seifa means 'after it was ready for Arifah (it is buried there).'

Question (Seifa):... It was brought due to Safek. It atoned for the Safek (before we found out).

If this is while it is alive, it did not atone!

Answer (and Answer #2 to Question (m)): Tana'im argue about this. (The following Tana forbids it while alive):

(Beraisa): The Torah discusses Machshirim (things that permit) and atonements brought in the Mikdash, and Machshirim and atonements brought outside;

In the Mikdash, the laws of Machshirim (e.g. Asham Metzora, which allows him to eat Kodshim) and atonements (Chata'os and Ashamos) are the same (they must be Kosher Korbanos). Also outside the Mikdash, the laws of Machshirim (Tziporei Metzora, i.e. birds used for his Taharah) and atonements (Se'ir ha'Mishtale'ach, i.e. the goat sent to Azazel on Yom Kipur and Eglah Arufah) are the same. (Just like the goat, which is Kodshim, is surely forbidden while alive, also the birds, and all the more so we learn one atonement (Eglah) from the other.)

(Mishnah - R. Eliezer): One may bring an Asham Taluy every day, whenever he wants. This is called "Asham Chasidim";

Bava ben Buta used to bring an Asham Taluy every day except for the day after Yom Kipur.

Bava ben Buta: I swear that if they would let me, I would bring even the day after Yom Kipur. However, they tell me to wait (another day,) until I have a (more reasonable) doubt. (Perhaps he ate Chelev when he broke his fast! Stam Chatas is for Chelev, for it is most common (Rashi Zevachim 8a)! Aruch l'Ner – this opinion permits a voluntary Asham only for a whole day of possible sin. Therefore, also they would not let him offer two in one day.)

Chachamim say, an Asham Taluy is brought only for (Safek of) something punishable by Kares (if Mezid) and Chatas (if Shogeg).

If one was Chayav to bring a Chatas or Asham Vadai, and Yom Kipur passed, he must bring it after Yom Kipur;

If he was Chayav to bring an Asham Taluy, he is exempt after Yom Kipur.

If one had a Safek Chet on Yom Kipur, even just before the end of the day, he is exempt, for the entire day atones.

If a woman had a Safek Chiyuv to bring a Chatas ha'Of, and Yom Kipur passed, she must bring it afterwards, for it permits her to eat Kodshim;

If a Chatas ha'Of was brought mi'Safek, and the doubt was resolved after Melikah, it must be buried.

(Gemara) Question: What is R. Eliezer's reason?

Answer: He holds that if an Asham Taluy were obligatory, one would be exempt if he later found out that he sinned;

Therefore, he concludes that it is only a Nedavah.

Chachamim say, only Olah and Shelamim are Nedavos, but Chatas and Asham are obligatory;

Even though an Asham Taluy is not Mechaper (to exempt one who later finds out that he sinned), it is brought to protect the person from punishments until he finds out. The Torah allows the Korban to spare Yisraelim from bodily punishment.

Question (Rav Acha brei d'Rava): Perhaps an Asham Taluy is like Olah and Shelamim. They can be brought for Chiyuvim, or for Nedavos!

Answer (Rav Ashi): The Torah primarily discusses Olah and Shelamim for Nedavos. It primarily discusses Asham Taluy for a Chiyuv.

(R. Chiya (bar Avin) - Beraisa): One brings an Asham Taluy if he ate (Safek) Nevelah.

Question (Rava - Mishnah - Chachamim): Asham Taluy is brought only for sins of Kares/Chatas.

You cannot say that your Beraisa is like R. Eliezer. He holds that an Asham Taluy is a Nedavah!

R. Chiya: If you would learn from Rabah, you would know the answer!

Answer (R. Chiya citing Rabah): The Beraisa is like R. Eliezer's understanding of Amru Lo (those who argue with Bava ben Buta):

(Mishnah - Amru Lo): Wait until you have a doubt!

(Rava): Amru Lo learn from "Asher Lo Se'asenah v'Lo Yoda v'Ashem." (An Asham Taluy is for any Lav. This is the verse (Vayikra 5:17) regarding Asham Taluy, cited by R. Gershom and Rashi according to Birkas ha'Zevach.)

(Rava): Chachamim say that an Asham Taluy is brought only for sins of Kares/Chatas. They learn a Gezeirah Shavah "Mitzvos-Mitzvos" from Chatas Chelev.

(Beraisa): Five Ashamos (Vada'os) are Mechaper. Asham Taluy is not Mechaper.

Question: What does this mean?

Answer #1 (Rav Yosef): Five Ashamos give a full Kaparah. Asham Taluy is not Mechaper totally;

This is unlike R. Eliezer, who obligates Asham Taluy for (Safek) Nevelah. (Even if later he will find out that he ate, no other Kaparah is brought.)

Answer #2 (Ravina): Five Ashamos give a Kaparah unattainable in any other way, but something else gives the same Kaparah as Asham Taluy:

(Mishnah): If one was Chayav to bring a Chatas or Asham Vadai, and Yom Kipur passed, he must bring it afterwards. If he was Chayav to bring an Asham Taluy, he is exempt after Yom Kipur.

(Mishnah): If one was Chayav to bring a Chatas or Asham Vadai...

Question: What is the source that Chatas and Asham Vadai must be brought after Yom Kipur, but Asham Taluy is not brought after Yom Kipur?

Answer #1 (Rav Dimi): "V'Chiper... umi'Pish'eihem l'Chol Chatosam" teaches that Yom Kipur atones for Chet (Shogeg) that is like Pesha (rebellion), i.e. no Korban is brought for it;

It does not atone for Chet for which a Korban is brought.

Objection (Abaye): That verse discusses the goat whose blood is offered inside (the Kodesh ha'Kodashim), which does not atone for known sins. The Se'ir ha'Mishtale'ach atones for known sins. Perhaps it atones even for Chet for which a Korban is brought!

Answer #2 (Abaye): "V'Hisvadah... Kol Pish'eihem l'Chol Chatosam" teaches that Se'ir ha'Mishtale'ach atones for Chet that is like Pesha, i.e. a Korban is not brought for it;

It does not atone for Chet for which a Korban is brought.

Question (Rav Dimi): What is the source that Pesha refers to sins for which no Korban is brought? Perhaps it refers to (Mezid) sins for which a Korban is brought!

(Mishnah): There are four who bring a Korban for Mezid like for Shogeg...

When Ravin came to Bavel from Eretz Yisrael, he cited Abaye's answer in the name of Reish Lakish.

Abaye: Also I said so. Rav Dimi asked that perhaps it refers to sins for which a Korban is brought!

Answer #1 (Ravin): For most Pesha'im, no Korban is brought.

Objection (Abaye): The verse does not say "Rov Pish'eihem"!

Answer #2 (Abaye): (We expound "Pish'eihem", for it is extra.) We already know (about Mezid) from the Reisha of the verse "v'Hisvadah Alav Es Kol Avonos Bnei Yisrael";

(Beraisa): "Avonos" refers to Mezid - "(Asher Ta'aseh b'Yad Ramah... Hikares... ) Avonah Vah." (Kares is only for Mezid.)

Question: Why do we need the Seifa "v'Es Kol Pish'eihem l'Chol Chatosam"?

Answer: This teaches that it atones for Chet that is like Pesha, i.e. no Korban is brought for it, but not for Chet for which a Korban is brought.

(Mishnah): If one was Chayav to bring an Asham Taluy (... he is exempt after Yom Kipur).

Question: What is the source of this?

Answer (R. Elazar): "Mi'Kol Chatoseichem Lifnei Hash-m... " teaches that Yom Kipur atones for Chet that is known only to Hash-m.

(Rav Tachlifa): This is a better source to learn that Yom Kipur does not exempt a Chiyuv to bring a Chatas or Asham Vadai than the answers of Rav Dimi and Abaye. Yom Kipur atones for Chet that is known only to Hash-m, but not for Chet known to others!