More Discussions for this daf
1. The powers of evil 2. Hashgachah 3. Bechirah Chofshis
4. Chesed
DAF DISCUSSIONS - CHULIN 7

Dr. M. Kaplan asked:

The Gemara first quotes Rebbi Chanina who says that nothing (even "Keshafim") has power in this world except for Hash-m, as it is written, "There is nothing besides Him" (Devarim 4). Rebbi Chanina further states that "a person does not hurt his finger unless decreed from above." The Gemara then quotes Rebbi Yochanan who says that sorcerers are called "Keshafim" because they are "Makchishin Pamalya Shel Ma'alah," -- "they contravene the powers of above."

How are we to reconcile these two statements?

The Kollel replies:

The answer to your question involves two elements. First, Rebbi Chanina is not teaching that bodily harm that is caused by another person is decreed from above. Rather, he is referring to what happens to a person through the natural course of events without human intervention. The reason for this is because, as the Or ha'Chaim writes (in Bereishis 37:21), a person -- who has the power of free choice -- is able to intervene in another person's life and even to kill him, even though it was not decreed from above on that person to die. (The source for this teaching can be found in the Zohar on that verse. According to some, there is a Machlokes Tana'im in the Zohar regarding this point.) Therefore, just as a person can physically damage someone else even though it was not ordained from above, a person can also damage someone else through his use of sorcery, even though it was not ordained from above. In this manner, the Keshafim can contravene the destiny decreed from above.

(We may wonder why the phrase "Makchishin Pamalya Shel Ma'alah" is used to describe only sorcery, when a person can contravene what was preordained with physical intervention as well. The answer is that when he contravenes with physical force, he is not enlisting any of the other powers or creations of Hash-m to his use. Keshafim, in contrast, enlist the powers of above, which normally would have brought a different fate to the subject involved. The reason why a person can turn the powers above to his use is because Hash-m instilled such an ability into the nature that He created, which allows a person to control certain powers of the physical and metaphysical world.)

The second part of the answer to your question is that Keshafim cannot damage every person. There are certain people, such as Rebbi Chanina (who says that "a person does not hurt his finger unless decreed from above"), who are invulnerable to the powers of Keshafim. This is discussed by RAV CHAIM of VOLOZHEN in his classic work, NEFESH HA'CHAIM (3:12). He writes that the power of sorcery comes from the control that Hash-m gave to man over certain "lower" metaphysical powers, powers that come through the stars and constellations. They do not have control over the powers that come from the holy "Merkavah" of Hash-m, and the realm of the Mal'achim (celestial beings). When a person "has firmly established Emunah in his heart that there is no other force in the world other than the will of Hash-m," and "his thoughts are so connected to the Master of all forces that it is clear to him that nothing else has any control or existence at all without Hash-m's will," he can be confident that the forces of sorcery will have no influence over him (unless Hash-m so desires). When Rebbi Chanina said that the sorcerers cannot affect him because, "Ein Od Milvado," he was emphasizing the clarity of his perfect faith. People such as Rebbi Chanina are invulnerable to sorcery.

Rav Chaim of Volozhen continues that when a person firmly establishes this belief in his heart, he can be confident than not only Keshafim cannot affect him, but that no other source, such as other persons, can cause him harm. It seems from his words that even the will of a person, who has the power of free choice, cannot affect a person who cleaves to Hash-m and fully accepts in his mind and heart that there is no other force that has any power in the world other than Hash-m alone.

M. Kornfeld

Rabbi Moshe Lehrfield writes:

Thank you.

The first answer given by the kollel is interesting; however, it implies that another person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. This is very difficult for me to accept. Most people have a simple understanding that whatever occurs to a person whether naturally or through the act of another person is because the one above has decreed it to be so. Of course, there may be an "exception" to this rule in the case of witchcraft, which needs further clarification. There is a wonderful discussion of this entire matter in Sifsai Chaim.

The second explanation is nice, but I do not think that it is the Pshat.

M. Lehrfield

The Kollel replies:

(a) Difficult as it sounds, the Or ha'Chayim that we quoted (in Bereishis 37:21) indeed says that a person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above. I discussed this Or ha'Chayim with Hagaon Rav Moshe Shapiro (Bayit Vegan) shlit'a recently, and tried to argue that he doesn't really mean that the preordained can be changed by another person, but that greater merit is necessary to prevent damage being inflicted by a free-choosing person than to prevent damage by an animal etc. However, Rav Moshe did not accept my argument and said that the Or ha'Chayim's words imply that a person can, in fact, harm another person even though such harm is not preordained from above.

(b) I am not sure what your difficulty was with the second explanation. Perhaps you found it difficult to fit into the words of Rebbi Chanina that a person does not stub his toe on this world unless it is decreed from above; how can that be referring only to the very meritorious?

However, that statement is not discussing harm being caused by a Ba'al Bechirah, but rather harm that comes by itself. Therefore it is true of everyone; one will not stub his toe without having it decreed from above. The other statement, "Ein Od Milvado", is limited by the Gemara itself to those who are unusually meritorious, as we said in our second explanation (which complements the first).

M. Kornfeld

Rabbi Lehrfield replies:

Thank you so much for the response. I am aware of the shita of the Or ha'Chaim, however, I believe, that this is not the "accepted" opinion. Furthermore, notwithstanding the opinion of Harav Shapiro, the Sifchei Chaim (who, I understand, learned together with Harav Shapiro from Harav Dessler) clearly says that this explanation is not the "opinion" of the Or ha'Chaim; rather, it is limited to that one situation between Yosef and his brothers , based on a concept similar to that of ayin harah (but in general, even the Or ha'Chaim agrees that a person cannot harm another unless it was preordained from above). I also heard from my Rosh Yeshiva that there is a Kabalah from the Vilna Gaon that the "halacha" is not like the Or ha'Chaim and that the concept of "witchcraft" is as explained by the nefesh ha'chaim (which explanation, I did not fully understand).

By the way, there is also a Ralbag similar to the Or ha'Chaim. He explains that the reason that the friends of Daniel (it is too hard for me to spell their names in English) were forced to leave the fire and that they did not want to leave the fire was because they were afraid that Nevuchadnezzer would harm them even though G-d had just saved them. (I heard the above explanation on a Rabbi Reisman tape) .

Thank you

Morris Smith adds:

On the same topic---Rav Isaac Bernstein,zt"l, also stated on his tape on parshat vayeshev that the Ohr Hachaim's concept of bechira is also alluded to in the beginning of tachanun --when David Hamelech asks to fall into the hands of Hashem and not into human hands

Shaul Praver comments:

sure Hashem is Erech apayim v'malei rachamim. whereas, Kol Adam ke'zev.

Rabbi Lehrfield added later:

By the way, it is interesting to look at the Chinuch on this commandment to kill a person engaging in sorcery. He also explains the concept of the power of witchcraft similar to that explained by the nefesh hachaim ; however, when explaining the commandment not to take revenge, he explains that commandment that we should not take revenge because anything that happens is only because G-d decreed it to happen and that the person who harm to you was merely a "messenger". (Apparently, this opinion disagrees with the ohr hachaim)

Josh Hoff writes:

Rabbi Nachum Spirn, in a small pamphlet entitled "Why Me?' ( published 2002) mentions the Ohr HaChaims oapproach to hashgacha as brought out in his comments about Yosef's brothers throwing him into the pit, and also brings material from R.Moshe Alshich and Netziv who have a similar opinion regarding hashgacha. There is also a Zohar which may support what the Ohr HaChaim says.

Rabbi Spirn that this approach is oppposed to the approach of Chovos Halevavos, and he equates R. Bachya'a approach to hashgacha to that of Hasidus in general. However, he does not mention that it was the Besht who saw hashgacha pratis behind every last detail of what happens to a person.

There is a lengthy treatment of the Ohr HaChaim's approach in the recently published Beis Ephraim by Rabbi Weinbeg ( not the late Rosh Yeshiva) of Ner Yisroel in Baltiimore, in the volume on the parshiyos, on parshas Vayeishev. Rabbi Zev Leff, in a class to a group of outreach trainees, said that the Ohr HaChaim's approach, although not the mainstream approach- which he identifies with the Chovos Halvavos- could be used in dealing with people troubled over the events of the Holocaust( as I believe Rabbi Benjamin Blech did in what turned out to be a controversial series of articles in the Jewish Press several years ago) . Rabbi Weinberg, in a footnote , writes that we cannot use the Ohr HaChaim

Jeffrey Katz adds:

Just to add another prominent opinion which seems to be in concert with the Ohr HaChaim, one should take a look at the Biur Halachah (Siman 218), d"h K'gon. In that Biur Halachah, the Chafetz Chaim, in trying to explain a Halachah brought down by the Kaftor VaPherach, states that although HaKadosh Baruch Hu specifically requested Eliyah HaNavi to appear before Achav, nevertheless, Achav is considered a "Ba'al Bechira" with regard to the life of Eliyahu and thus Eliyahu's life was deemed to be in danger.

Jeffrey Katz

Sam Kosofsky adds:

In regard to the discussion of whether a person can harm someone else if Hashem did not decree it - we find in Shmuel Alef perek 16 that Hashem sends Shmuel Hanavi to anoint Dovid as melech. Shmuel asks Hashem: How will I go - when Shaul hears of it he will kill me?" Hashem does not get angry at Shmuel nor does He rebuke him in any way. He takes the question very seriously and gives Shmuel an etza. He doesn't say: "If I send you how can harm come to you?" He says: "Take an eglat bakar with you and say I came to bring a korban (zevach) to Hashem." Shmuel Hanavi is as great a person and as big a tzaddik as almost anyone except Moshe Rabbeinu and his fears are still treated as a legitimate concern.

B'kavod,

Samuel Kosofsky