DAF DISCUSSIONS - ZEVACHIM 86

morris smith asks:

when we discuss these hardened limbs, and as the shita says that the moisture is completely seared out, does that mean that the marrow is also completely dried out or is it intact ?

morris smith, usa

The Kollel replies:

It seems to me that the marrow also has burnt up. My proof for this is Tosfos Zevachim 97b (paragraph beginning v"Echad, in the 3rd long line) where he seems to say that if one places a burning coal on the bone of the animal, this will remove the "moach"; the marrow. [Rashi Zevachim 97b also writes that if one eats the "moach" of the Pesach sacrifice one thereby fulfills the Mitzvah of eating the meat of the korban Pesach, so we see that marrow is considered as meat] The source for the statement of Tosfos is Gemara Chulin 11a which states that if one places a coal on the skull of an animal this will burn up the brain membrane.

So it would appear that if the limbs are burnt in the way that our Gemara describes, one could assume that the marrow would be totally burnt up.

With best wishes

Dovid Bloom

The Kollel adds:

1) I must apologize for a mistake I made in the above. Tosfos does not write that when one places the coal on the bone of the korban Pesach, that this burns up the marrow. Rather, Tosfos means that when one places the coal on the bone, this burns a hole in the bone, and one can then remove the marrow and eat it, and thereby fulfil the mitzvah of eating korban. See Pesachim 84b that burning the bone of the Pesach sacrifice is not included in the prohibition of breaking the bones.

2) However I still hold to my ground that in our Gemara 86b, when the fire devoured the entire limbs as Rashi writes, the marrow would also be burnt up. In fact I think this is also suggested by the fact that the Gemara mentions (see Pesachim 84b) the idea of placing a coal on the bone, taking the marrow out and eating it. The fact that the Gemara mentions the coal suggests that if one would use a full fire this would burn up the marrow as well.

Shabbat Shalom

Dovid Bloom

Morris Smith asks:

Art Scroll -Rabbi Danziger- thinks differently. It cannot refer to just the bones because bones only go on the mizbe'ach when their meat is still attached to them and they are not returned to the mizbe'achonce the meat comes off.

Sherirei means that the meat became completely dried out by the fire, hard through and through, and not just singed on the outside but moist on the inside. However, it was not yet burnt to a crisp (פחם). See Rashi.

The Kollel replies:

The Mikdash David 1:5:3 writes that bone marow is considered as meat for all purposes. Therefore if the bones have come down from the Mizbeach, if they contain marrow they should be broken and the marrow should be returned to the Mizbeach. Mikdash David writes that when the Mishnah end 85b states that if the bones left the Mizbeach they should not be returned, this must be referring to bones without any marrow.

However Mikdash David then questions his above assertion, because the bones may be considered a Chatzitzah between the marrow and the wood of the fire (see Gemara below 110a "v'Ha'ika chatzitzah"). However Mikdash David writes that since the marrow is a natural part of the bone it is possible that this is not considered a Chatzitzah (in a similar way that Yevamos 78a-b states that when a pregnant mother immerses for Gerut this is effective also for the fetus. The mother is not considered as a Chatzitzah between the water and the baby because this is the natural way of immersing).

Yasher Koach

Dovid Bloom