More Discussions for this daf
1. Dibur is not a Ma'aseh 2. Pshat in Rashi 3. Which Mesichta comes before Makos?
4. Keitzad Ein HaEdim Neasim Zomemim 5. Edut Sh'eino Yachol L'haziman 6. Question on the second Kal Vachomer.
7. Rebbi Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer 8. Eidim Zomemim 9. Rebbi Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer
10. Does the Gerushah become a Chalalah? 11. Damages 12. Iy Atah Yachol Lehazimah, and Kim Lei...
13. 40 lashes 14. Minah Hani Mili 15. Edus she'I Efshar l'Hazimah
16. Malkus for Edim Zomemim in a case of Ben Gerushah, Tosfos 17. Question on Suggestion of First Tosfos 18. First Tosfos on Daf 2a
19. Mitzri Sheni 20. Lo Sa'aneh Without an Action 21. Mitzri Sheni
22. Ben Gerushah And Ben Chalutzah 23. Chalutzah 24. Galus
25. Chalalah 26. R Yochanons Kal v'Chomer- Insights 27. Killing b'Shogeg or b'Meizid
28. Ma'aseh or not? 29. v'Lo Ka'asher Asah 30. Tosfos on "Mah ha'Sokel"
31. Tosfos and Maharsha 2b 32. R. Yochanan's Kal v'Chomer 33. Question on the Ritva from Shifchah Charufah (in Insights)
34. מכות בגימטריא הרהורים 35. מכות בגימטריא הרהורים 36. תוספות ד"ה מעידין
37. אין עושין בהן דין הזמה כל עיקר 38. והצדיקו את הצדיק 39. בגניבתו ולא בזממו
DAF DISCUSSIONS - MAKOS 2

Elchonon asked:

In your insites of the day you asked a question- why are eidim zommemin not given kofer as a kapparah? don't they not need a Kapparah?

The Ritva answered that a kapparah is never given for an intentinal sin. You asked on him why the Edim Zomemim cannot be obligated to bring a Korban if they testified about a Shifrah Cahrufah [since one who sinned with a Shifchah Charufah brings a Korban for sinning intentionally].

I believe that is a once- and only once type of case. The rishonim specifically say so. That question is not a question. Thank you for your time.

Elchonon, united states

The Kollel replies:

Elchonon,

I am not sure if I understand your question correctly, so I think it will be safest to first clarify my intention in the Insights in order to make my question on the Ritva more clear.

The Gemara's logic that Edim Zomemim are not Bnei Kaparah explains two Halachos: (1) Why don't they have to pay Kofer if they testify that a person's ox killed a man, and (2) Why don't they have to bring a Korban if they testified that a person sinned the type of sin that obligates him to bring a Korban Chatas or Asham? (This second Halachah is not mentioned explicitly anywhere, but since we never find in the Mishnah or Gemara that Edim Zomemim are punished any punishment other than Misah, Mamon or Malkus, it would seem that they cannot be punished with bringing a Korban.)

My question on the Ritva was that his explanation did not fully answer the second question. According to his logic, one is left to wonder why Edim Zomemim are not punished with bringing an Asham Shifchah Charufah if they testify that someone is obligated to bring such a Korban.

It is true, as you write, that Asham Shifchah Charufah is only brought under specific circumstances. However, "Ka'asher Zamam" means that we transfer onto the witnesses any punishment -- or Kaparah for intentional sin -- that the witnesses tried to bring about through their testimony. Therefore, their punishment should be that they themselves should bring an Asham Shifchah Charufah. After all, the Ritva was willing to have the Edim pay Kofer -- had it been applicable to one who sins intentionally -- even though the Torah says that it applies only in one specific instance (when one's ox kills a man).

Note that the answer of the Ramban -- answer (b) -- does answer this question.

Please let me know if you still have difficulty with the Insights.

Best wishes,

M. Kornfeld