More Discussions for this daf
1. He built Shomron after Shemer 2. Question about kings 3. חלום מנשה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SANHEDRIN 102

David Goldman asked:

Greetings, again, R. Mordechai or R. Yehuda Landy. Another interesting kashe: how do we understand the difference between Shaul Hamelech and Yeravam ben Nevat, since we know that Shaul was considered a tsaddik all his life, but Yeravam became a rasha? After all, Shaul killed people (kohanei Nov) shelo kedin, he persecuted Dovid Hamelech and violated the nevua of Shmuel Hanavi about Amalek.

On the other hand, Yeravam simply added to the nevua of Achiyah Hashiloni by separating the northern tribes from the Beis Hamikdash.......Not only that, but Hash-m himself did not even interfere with the mikdashim at Bethel and Dan for 300 years!

Finally, since we know that even the wicked kings were on high madregas, how do we understand the rationale of Achav, Menashe, Achaz and Amon to do the things they did in avoda zarah? Did they have a cheshbon that this was the ratson Hash-m?? Even if Achav only saw the Baal as an assistant, or whatever, to Hash-m, how did he rationalize it, considering he had been mechadesh over 100 halachas in Torah? And as far as the other kings are concerned, what kind of rationales did they have? Even Menashe, it is said he did what he did lehach'is, to anger Hash-m. How could someone of his understanding and knowledge have that kind of bizarre kavana??

Thanks,

David Goldman

The Kollel replies:

Let us begin with your questions regarding Shaul Hamelech and Yeravam ben N'vat.

To begin with, Shaul Hamelech did not lead others astray in the way that Yeravam ben N'vat did. Does the pasuk not describe the latter as one who sinned and caused others to sin? That, clearly, was his ultimate downfall.

Secondly, Shaul's sins were short-lived (and he was punished for them), whereas those of Yeravam were ongoing, lasting even many generations after his death.

And thirdly, Shaul Hamelech was gripped by an evil spirit, which rendered not totally responsible for his misdeeds.

I am not sure what you mean when you write 'On the other hand, Yeravam simply added ... ', and then add 'Not only that ... '. Yeravam had free choice, just like everybody else did, and the Nevu'ah that preceded him was hardly a Heter to do what he did. And so what if Hash-m Himself did not interfere ... for three hundred years? Does that mean that this was not a sin?

As a matter of interest, sure Hash-m could have interfered, but like we find in Egypt, where He allowed Paroh to subjugate Yisrael, in order to take Yisrael out prematurely, it may well be that Hash-m allowed the situation concerning the ten tribes to persist, because it suited His purpose to divide Yisrael into two (due to the sin of Shlomoh Hamelech), as He had previously informed Achiyah ha'Shiloni.

As for your question regarding Achav, Menasheh, Acha and Amon, they could not possibly have believed that they were performing the Ratzon Hash-m, at least not Menasheh and other kings who did what they did in order to anger Hash-m (as you yourself write with regard to Menasheh).

Chazal do ascribe their actions to a powerful Yeitzer ha'Ra to worship idols, and they go on to explain that Ezra and the Anshei Keneses ha'Gedolah found it necessary to Daven that Hash-m it from future generations.

The Gemara in Sanhedrin (102b) cites Rav Ashi, who asked King Menasheh, who appeared to him in a dream (and who proved to him that he knew more than he did) that since he was so wise, why did he serve Avodah-Zarah? To which he replied that so overwhelming was the Yeitzer-ha'Ra at the time, that had he (Rav Ashi) lived then, he would have raised the hem of his cloak to run faster, to worship it as quickly as possible.

You will probably then ask why Menashah and the kings were held responsible for their deeds? Better still, why did Hash-m allow the Yeitzer ha'Ra to deprive them of their free-will?

Although as an answer, this will not be adequate, bear in mind that the greater the person, the greater his Yeitzer ha'Ra.

It seems to me, however, that however strong a person's Yeitzer ha'Ra, he always has recourse to Tefilah. Indeed, Chazal have said that were it not for Divine Assistance, one would be unable to stand up to the Yeitzer ha'Ra. In that case, the greatest sin of The Kings was not that they were unable to defeat the Y.H., but that, right from the outset, they failed to pray to Hash-m to help them overcome it.

Finally, your question from Menasheh, who, with all his wisdom, actually sinned in order to anger Hash-m, have Chazal not said 'Aveirah Goreres Aveirah'? If a person allows himself to sin be'Shogeg, he will inevitably end up sinning on purpose le'Te'avon (for pleasure), and once he reaches that stage, be rest assured that he will soon be sinning Lehach'is (to anger Hash-m).

R. Eliezer Chrysler

David Goldman replied:

Dear R. Eliezer: Thank you very much for your insights. Isn't it "interesting" that Hashem sort of allowed the 10 tribes to miss doing the ratzon Hashem for 300 years on the yomim tovim and with regular korbanos?! I mean, imagine Yidden going "aliya leregel" to Dan and Bethel every year, be-mesirus nefesh, year after year, generation after generation, having done all of that in vain.......

As far as the avodah zarah issue is concerned, I agree completely with your explanation. I just ask how could these kings and their supporters have ever rationalized this kind of yetser harah when it violated a clear and unambiguous prohibition of the Torah?!! If we would have a tayve to eat pork, we certainly would have the understanding to know that there is no way we would do such a thing, not to mention having such a yetser harah introduced to the entire Jewish people by its king for years and years!!

The Kollel replies:

Chazal have said 'be'Derech she'Adam Rotzeh Leilech, Molichin Oso'. So unless a person takes the first step, he is like to keep on sinning and going slipping further and further. As you say, it is interesting (I would refer to is as frightening), that this can happen to a community, from generation after generation.

It seems to me though that had Yisrael shown the slightest interest in doing Teshuvah, Hashem would have responded, as Chazal say 'Pischu Li Pischo shel Machat, va'Ani Eftach Lachem ke'Pischo shel Ulam'. As I wrote last time, Tefilah is the key. It is the catalyst that breaks the ice, And you don't have to know much to Daven. Every Jew was given the conveying link at Har Sinai, when Hashem said over the first two commandments personally.

Rationalize! That's before one commits the sin. Once a person sins, say Chazal, he is possessed by a spirit of Sh'tus (foolishness), and a fool doesn't rationalize.

So how did the decline begin, you will ask? Simple. The Yeitzer ha'Ra begins with small things, as I'm sure you know (see the first Pasuk in Tehilim, which Chazal explain to mean that first one walks past, then one stops to watch, and finally, one sits down and joins in). In the same way, if one were to eat pork be'Shogeg, in a moment of weakness (away from home, among Nochrim, tired, hungry, it was free, one's friend did it), just once, you wouldn't believe how much easier it would be the second time, and as for the third time, you'd think it was permitted.

And as for the Yeitzer ha'Ra being introduced by the king of Yisrael, as you conclude, there we are dealing with Kavod, which is a Parshah on its own. As you probably know, he was afraid that when Yisrael went to Yerushalayim on the Chag, they would see the King of Yehudah sitting in the Azarah, whilst he had to stand. As a result, he figured, the people would depose him and go back to Rechavam. Now you only have to look at today's politicians to see just how far a person will go to make sure that he does not lose his seat, and to what extent that affects his sanity.

R. Eliezer Chrysler

David Goldman responds:

Thanks, good points. I just try to imagine these people at a madrega far from the megushamdike one of our generation. But I guess it all comes to the same thing: i.e. whether the person's intention is megusham or spiritual, the yetser works on that particular level. It does seem rather sad that Yidden who may have meant leshem shomayim were basically wasting their time adhering to the directives of their leaders in the northern kingdom for some many generations......even observing Sukkos in an "iber yohr" of Cheshvan........A total waste of time and koyches, for which there was no benefit of doing the ratson Hashem. Nebuch........But even in our generation, how many Yidden waste their time in Reform, Conservative, etc., thinking maybe that Hashem likes what they are doing. Or for that matter the Zionist state itself. Time and life lost and wasted..........

The Kollel replies:

How right you are!

Though it may well be that, at the end of the day, Hashem will not punish fully these Tinokos she'Nishbe'u, and perhaps even reward them in part for their good intentions. Who knows?

R. Eliezer Chrysler