More Discussions for this daf
1. Keeping Accurate Measures 2. Eileh 3. Hachra'os
4. בלח אבל ביבש אינו צריך 5. קשה עונשן של מדות יותר מעונשן של עריות 6. הסבר וציורים לסוגיית הכרע טפח
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA BASRA 88

Meyer Lieber asked:

The Gemara cites a posuk in Yecheskel 17 to prove that "Ayl" means strong. Why not cite the posuk in Uz Yosheer (15:15) which we say every day "Aluphei Edom Ay-Lay Moab"

Meyer Lieber, Wesley Hills, NY

The Kollel replies:

Dear Meyer,

Nice question. But apparently it's a better proof from Yechezkel. From the context we see that Nevuchadnetzar wanted to prevent rebellion by exiling the strong, "Eilei," of the land. But by Az Yashir the word Eilei could mean the people of Mo'av like the end of the Pasuk - Yoshvei Kena'an.

All the best,

Reuven Weiner

Yitzchok Zirkind comments:

The question is even stronger Rashi on the word baEilim in Shiras Hayam (Shmos 16:11) proves that eilim means strong from the Possuk in Yechezkel and not from eilei moav which is a mere 4 psukim later.

WRT the answer that it could mean "the people" of moav, IMHO is difficult see mforshim ubifrat on Rashi d"h Alufei Edom Eilei Moav that Rashi is actually explaining that there is difference between Yoshvei Chnoan where the Yidden were headed to (therefore they all feared, likewise Yoshvei Ploshes) vs. Alufei Edom and Eilei Moav that it was a sadness over the Yiddens triumph that affected (mainly) the leadership.

Perhaps the Chidush in Yechezkel is that over there in the prior Possuk the leaders are called Sarim (which is the title given to Jewish leaders) in the following Possuk "Eilei" is not just a "title" (like Aluf Nosee etc.) based on the fact that leaders are the strong ones of a nation, rather there the Teitch of the word is "the strong" wheras in Eilei Moav it is a "title" which is linked with it's meaning, so when bringing proof to a word we are directed to were the word is teitched by the meaning not alludes to it's meaning. (Just to note the targum here says Eilei is Takeefei vs. Yechezkel Ravrivei (for both Sorim and Eilei), here he Teitches Alufei as Ravrivei as he does in Breishis 36:15, he also Teitches Nsi'im Ravrivei ex. Bamidbar 7:10, Sorim he teiches Ravrvei Breishis 12:15 and Rabonei Shmos 18:21, we also find Atzilei Shmos 24:11 teitched as Ravrivei, bPashtus Ravrivei is used as a general title for leadership, however certain details still need Iyun).

Kol Tuv,

Yitzchok Zirkind