More Discussions for this daf
1. The Satan and Mal'ach ha'Maves 2. Mal'ach ha'Maves 3. Wall of the Bor
4. Sid
DAF DISCUSSIONS - BAVA BASRA 17

Salomon Amar asked:

The gemara at the end of the 1st perek brings a lists of people that deserved to have a glimpse of Olam haba or which body did not deteriorate after death and ends up with the fact that 4 people Beyamin, Amram Ishai and Kilav that if it were not for the malach hamavet and the het of Adam the malach hamavet would not have gotten over them and possibly they would not have died:

2 questions please:

1. why the Avot as well as the 3 manhige Israel are not mentioned here also

2. This is a question from my Rav: Ishai if anything died a very tragic death how do we reconcile this with the gemara??

Thank you in advance

Shlomo Amar

The Kollel replies:

1. This list is for people who did not sin. The Avos, while extremely holy, did sin, and therefore could not be included in this list. [If you would like a listing of their sins, please write back.]

2. There is a concept called "Yisurin Shel Ahavah" -- "affliction out of love." Rashi in Berachos (5a) understands that this means that Hash-m may afflict someone in this world "without him having done anything wrong" in order to give him a greater reward in the World to Come. It is therefore very possible that his death was a form of "Yisurin Shel Ahavah." [Even if he did not sin, Hash-m might have wanted to give him greater reward, as if he had done more positive Mitzvos than he had actually done.]

All the best,

Yaakov Montrose

Rabbi Chrysler adds:

First of all, you have misquoted the Gemara, which says that if not for the 'plan of the snake', the four Tzadikim mentioned would not have died' - because sin is the cause of death, and they did not sin.

Now to answer your questions:

1. The Avos, it seems, did sin (earlier in their lives, before they conquered the Yetzer ha'Ra). Presumably, their 'sins' are those listed in the Medrash - Avraham asked Hash-m for a proof that his children would inherit Eretz Yisrael; Yitzchak in that he favoured Esav (and subsequently gave him a blessing); and Ya'akov when he married two sisters. None of these were real sins for which you or I would have been taken to task, but on the level of the Avos, they were considered as such.

2. The Gemara in Berachos, discusses the concept of 'Yisurin shel Ahavah' - suffering that Tzadikim undergo, even though they have done nothing wrong to deserve it. It is like placing money in a savings account, where the interest accumulates. Perhaps we can learn from Yishai (who was murdered by the King of Mo'av) that there is such a concept as 'Misah shel Ahavah' - a death of love, which adds to one's reward in the World to Come.

Kol Tuv

Eliezer Chrysler.